The Campus Rape Myth

Caitlain | March 3, 2008, 11:02pm | #

I agree with Ellie. You people exhibit a complete lack of understanding about the sexual dynamic of a college campus. Of course, you don't really care, though, do you?

Dennis Jetmore | March 4, 2008, 1:15pm | #

Surely most folks reading Ms. Kasic's article understand the point she's making - College rape statistics are being inflated to accomodate another agenda. I read nothing in her piece suggesting an insult to rape victims or to imply a lack of understanding regarding college sexual dynamics. Come on, if you want to critique, stay on point. You're embarrasing yourselves.

jenna Owsianik | March 4, 2008, 3:27pm | #

Well, what I am interested in knowing is what the IWF's stance on Charlotte Allen's "Women Aren't Very Bright Column"is....

johanna | March 4, 2008, 3:47pm | #

A thoughtful response to MacDonald's piece in the LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-macdonald27feb27,0,6130673.story

Also curious about IWF's relationship and (lack of) response to Charlotte Allen deeming women "not very bright."

Karen | March 4, 2008, 4:21pm | #

That the answer in MacDonald's article to the rape "myth" (incredibly offensive language there) is simply "girls, don't be sluts," bespeaks a facile view of the world which is based upon unthinking stereotypes. Perhaps a better answer would be to better educate our children about sexuality, so that sexual partners can openly negotiate their boundaries, rather than assume, and assume more than is offered?

Kris | March 4, 2008, 4:32pm | #

The very fact that MacDonald compares victims of date rape to "real" rape victims is enough to indicate that she has a grossly inappropriate perception of sexual violence.

Devon | March 4, 2008, 4:46pm | #

I thought you worked for women's best interest. Well its in my interest to hear what IWF has to say about the Charlotte Allen piece. Speak?

Julie | March 4, 2008, 4:59pm | #

Ms. MacDonald's article, by attempting to minimize the rape crisis, manages to accuse women of being liars and simultaneously blame them for their own assault. The one-in-four statistic has been backed up by numerous other studies, because surprisingly enough, not all rape involves a masked gunmen jumping out of the bushes. By publishing such tripe, Ms. MacDonald is perpetuating the idea that rape is only rape if it involves a stranger in a dark alley, adding to the guilt and shame victims feel by blaming their assault on their "sexual behavior," and therefore contributing to the problem of under-reporting and lack of awareness of sexual assault.

Let's hear what IWF has to say about Charlotte Allen's "women are dumb" piece, eh?

Pat | March 4, 2008, 5:21pm | #

Glad to see this is being reported. I attempted to write on this very thing after I dug through the methodology, I found exactly what is reported here. I have brought this up every year for the last 5 years to school newspapers and local newspapers but to no avail. Nobody seems to want to dig through the methodology to see if the statistic is really true.

I did 5 years ago and this is what I found:

The question that gets the 1/4 rape statistic is basically this: “have you had sex without verbally giving consent?”

This question is given after the women are asked if they have been raped, which most say no. The report has the audacity to conclude FOR THESE WOMEN, that they were raped, even if they didn’t think so.

Like most rabid left wing feminists, the report believes women can’t think for themselves. As seen in the comments addressing this column.

I attempted to write on this 5 years ago at Penn State and my column was squashed. About 6 weeks later I was asked to leave the newspaper. Please ladies and gents, this is not attacking those who have been raped, it is not minimizing the severity of the problem, it is a factual point on those who have lied and manipulated statistics.

Please have the brains, rationality, and manners to address these points and not resort to personal attacks.

KarenAnn | March 4, 2008, 6:08pm | #

*The question that gets the 1/4 rape statistic is basically this: “have you had sex without verbally giving consent?”*

Um, last I checked, having sex without consent is, indeed, rape.

I also want to know what the IWF thinks about Chalotte Allen's attack on her own gender.

Luna | March 4, 2008, 6:48pm | #

Hey, guess why a lot of rape victims don't say "I was raped"? Because some asswipe will ask what she was wearing, where she was walking, how much she'd been drinking, how hard she fought (gotta love that one). And you know what? It's damned hard to admit to oneself that one was raped. Damned hard. So pardon the fuck out of me if I don't identify as a rape victim for the questionnaires. Fact is, when the question is 'have you ever had sex without your consent', the answer is yes. And that's rape, whether I or you want to admit it. *THAT'S* the reason it's phrased that way. It's not to artificially inflate the numbers. Jesus. What possible agenda would we have for artificially inflating rape numbers?!

Ismone | March 4, 2008, 7:07pm | #

Did you guys read her even more awful follow-up piece? Trigger warning: http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0302hm.html

She totally misses that the "1 in 5" number substantiated by the DOJ doesn't even involve alcohol. I can't believe their blogging about MacDonald---she criticizes the Koss methodology, but her own assertions, i.e. that women could "prevent rape" are completely unsupported by any statistics or by expert opinions of those who actually know something about rape, which she clearly doesn't.

Pat | March 4, 2008, 8:48pm | #

I'm sorry, Karen Ann, perhaps you misread, I said “verbally gave consent” but if you aren’t aware there is such thing as non verbal consent. What feminists that propagate this misleading statistic are attempting to do is take a legitimate form of activity between a man and woman and criminalize it even though most women don't think its criminal and are in fact agreeing to participate.

Basically, you're putting words into women's mouths and trying to think for them. When asked during a blind survey if the women had been raped, the vast majority had answered no. When asked whether they had sex while drunk many said yes. When asked whether or not they had verbally said yes to sex or even asked for it, many women said that had happened at least once. Both of these lead the researches to assume, for the women, that they had been raped.

It was a bogus study, it was methodologically poor. You can’t just make up stuff, or redefine rape to fit some agenda. And please, cut it out. No one is out to get you, we’re just pointing out the fact that there are people who are using a bogus statistic and manipulating people with it. Some, perhaps like yourself, are unaware, while others know the methodological error, and don’t care.

And yes Majorie, you are putting words in these women's mouths. Perhaps by accident because you also use a bogus definition for the term rape by insisting that it only occur after verbal communication by both parties. That is nonsense.

Pat | March 4, 2008, 8:57pm | #

And another thing, the feminists posting here appear to be the very dangerous kind that think the world should be hunky dory because that's the way you want it.

You are the type of girls who refused to allow the IWF at Penn State to have a self defense course for women because "WOMEN SHOULDNT BE RAPED" they shouldn’t, but it happens. Women should know how to defend themselves but you've made the perfect the enemy of the good.

Instead the feminists at PSU paid for stupid urinal cakes that said "In your hands you hold the power to stop rape" what nonsense. Not a single woman on campus was helped by that.

Why do you lock your car doors? Why do you carry your purse under your arm? Why do you walk at night with friends? It’s called prevention and feminists like the ones above don't want to do it. If you protect your property from potential crime why not protect your body from potential crime? Instead you’d rather focus on the date rape by scaring girls with a bogus ¼ statistic based on the OPINIONS of the research and NOT the data collected. Get real.

Why on earth do you make people who advocate preventive measures out to be such bad people? Really?

Marjorie | March 4, 2008, 9:31pm | #

Pat, read my comment a little more closely. I explicitly stated that intercourse with someone who does not verbal consent is NOT the same thing as rape. In fact, I made that point before you did.

The point is that feminists aren't telling these women what did or didn't happen, or whether they did or didn't consent.

You raise an important issue but it is a DEFINITIONAL issue, not feminists telling women that they experienced something they didn't experience.

Maeby | March 4, 2008, 9:55pm | #

"a bogus ¼ statistic based on the OPINIONS of the research"

Actually, Pat, the question was based on the Ohio penal code's definition of rape. You obviously haven't read the study.

As Marjorie already explained to you: "This is a definitional issue! So if a woman says, "I wouldn't use the word 'rape' to describe what happened" and it turns out that what happened meets a legal or other definition of rape, then it is fair to say she was raped regardless of what label she chooses. (This is similar to what a prosecutor does. The prosecutor does not defer to the victim's definition of "rape" or "assault" or "kidnapping" but rather to the definition contained in a criminal code.) So, Pat, it is dishonest to pretend that this is an example of feminists trying to tell women what their experiences are, when that is not what is going on at all."

Would you only consider it child molestation if a child would agree to that definition? Or if a woman who couldn't speak English didn't know what 'rape' meant? It doesn't matter what a person calls it. If they are forced to have sex without their consent it is rape.

I am also becoming interested in the IWF response to the Allen article? Are you proud of her? Why don't you say so?

Dixie345 | March 4, 2008, 10:41pm | #

I think the Allen piece, as well as this one which misrepresents rape statistics and blames women for rape, makes it crystal clear that the IWF is full of misogynists who could care less about what is in women's best interest. Why don't you come out of the closet as the woman-haters you are? You think that women are the "dumb" sex, except you at IWF, right? You are among the "brilliant outliers." The rest of us should just sit quiet and be wives and homemakers while you are active in the political sphere, busy taking away our rights.

Jane | March 5, 2008, 12:07am | #

While I admit I found much of Mac Donald's articles to be difficult to believe, I was curious about two themes surfacing in ‘A Thought Experiment in Campus Rape’.

One is the concept of ‘modesty’ as a means to reduce the sexualized atmosphere of many college campuses. Instead of ‘modesty,’ the word ‘temperance’ would be more applicable, as it connotes an active and intelligent monitoring of all behavior (in this case, especially of drinking, which everyone agrees would make campuses safer for women), and does not carry the gendered stigma of ‘modest,’ associated primarily with women.
Liberals and conservatives could find ample ground to agree on regarding the social, personal, and environmental benefits that could be derived from the promotion of ‘temperate’ behavior as an ideal.

Perhaps some of the opposition to the author’s ‘modesty’ theory of rape reduction is analogous to the author’s objection to some young women’s (perceived) use of alcohol to shift responsibility of their sexual behavior onto young men who may be similarly inebriated. It would be equally apt to say that young men whose senses are addled by alcohol and fraternization with ‘immodest’ young women displaying receive the unfortunate but predictable outcome of a lifetime on the Sex Offender Registry, as it is to say that drunken young women receive the unfortunate but predictable outcome of unwanted sexual experiences.

Legally, consent cannot be given by a woman in a state of intoxication, and sexual activity without consent is rape in the eyes of the law. This being the case, it can only benefit everybody if young men can be empowered with this knowledge.

My other concern however was in Mac Donald’s, possibly unconscious?, double-standard of negative choice. In response to Koss’s assertion that men should just know it is wrong to have sex with inebriated women the same way they know it is wrong to have sex with an unconscious person they come across in the street, Mac Donald’s response of “some men may know that; others may not. By all means, try to educate as many as you can,” suggests she feels that the ‘negative choice’ of ‘do not rape inebriated women’ is too abstract for mass male consumption, and may be a fools errand to teach. Earlier in her response, however, she positions the exercise of negative choice for females, “…don’t get into bed with a guy when you are very drunk, don’t take off your clothes, don’t get involved in oral sex,” as “fully consistent with female empowerment”.

Even allowing that, for the sake of argument, that these “don’ts” fall into the definition of “female empowerment,” how can this type of negative choice be too abstract for young men while constituting a means of empowerment for young women?

We can all agree that even one instance of rape or any permutation of undesired sexual activity is unacceptable at college campuses or anyplace else. Hopefully, articles such as this can help to promote useful discussion on how we as a society can reduce these awful occurrences to zero.

Ismone | March 5, 2008, 10:05am | #

"You are attempting to make a point with no data other than your own opinions. I find it incredibly offensive and degrading that you would even dare claim that women are not being raped and that if they are it is because of a movement for empowered female sexuality."

Actually, the data is (1) the Koss study and (2) the DOJ study (which produced a 1 in 5 number). (For the DOJ study, go to the link I posted upthread, and click on the link to Mary Koss's rebuttal in the text of the article.)

If a (now-adult) child molest victim doesn't call it molestation, does that mean it wasn't? If a person doesn't call getting cold-cocked battery, does that mean it isn't? If a person doesn't call a brutal attack "attempted murder" and instead thinks they were just "in a fight" even though they didn't hit their opponent or otherwise provoke the attack and they were almost killed, should we not prosecute?

And Pat, I have never known a feminist group who is against self-defense classes as such. If they were, they are dumbasses and deserve to get their feminist cred. trounced on.

There is nothing wrong with doing things to make yourself safe. It is in fact very wise. The bad thing is, after the fact, blaming someone for not being a judo expert or being able to fight off an offender. It is very hard, and very context dependent whether fighting is in fact a good thing. Sometimes it is a great thing, and turns a rape into an attempted rape. But, I had a supervisory FBI agent who specialized in non-custodial kidnappings/sex crimes tell me that about half of rapists will become more violent if resisted, and do the victim greater injury or kill him/her.

So my ultimate point: self-defense--good; telling women it was there fault for not fighting back: bad. (How many mugging victims do we tell that to?)

Courtney | March 5, 2008, 11:10am | #

Pat said: "Why do you lock your car doors? Why do you carry your purse under your arm? Why do you walk at night with friends? It’s called prevention and feminists like the ones above don't want to do it. If you protect your property from potential crime why not protect your body from potential crime?"

Pat, I think if you actually asked around, you'd be hard pressed to find a feminist who doesn't advocate learning how to protect oneself from attack. What upsets me is that for every self-defense class and warning for women to do or don't do something, there is virtually NOTHING in the mainstream that I've seen to push the fact that RAPISTS are to be held accountable for rape and RAPISTS only. It IS a gendered issue, for men are by and large are the ones doing the raping. I want to see self-defense programs matched one-for-one with education programs to change that backwards culture we live in and put the blame for rape where it belongs. Until that happens, you bet your ass I'm going to bitch about where the onus for rape is still largely being placed: on women.
Another thing, Pat, don't EVER, EVER compare rape to a property crime. The two are 100% different. Men and women both don't walk alone at night because they might get mugged for their money. That's a crime of opportunity (note I'm not saying that this is not a serious crime). Women, however, have the right to exist as females, just as men have this right, without being violated, no matter what the circumstance, be it walking alone, at a bar, at work, in someone else's home, or in their own home. That women have to alter their lives simply for being female is BACKWARDS. Rape is NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN been a "simple fact of life".

Ashley Otero | March 5, 2008, 2:31pm | #

So what about the notice circulating my college campus, warning women about the man who is follwing them into the restrooms? This is not something to worry about? I supppose the girls he has already followed in there... were over reacting? Seriously, you have the pen in your hand, its up to you to write on valid and important issues surrounding us. Stop down sizing what CAN happen to even yourself or daughters (if any).

Hey Skipper | March 5, 2008, 4:18pm | #

One would think that if there were as many rapes as the statistics suggests, there would be some knock-on effects.

Like, say, pregnancies due to unplanned intercourse.

Or, even worse, increaseing suicides due to the trauma of the event.

Unfortunately, neither is the case. Fertility among young women is at its lowest point in US history, and female suicide rates have been in a nearly unbroken downward trend since 1970.

Surely someone has looked into consequent mental health counseling? Right?

If the effects aren't there, then perhaps the cause isn't either.

This 1 in 4 statistic reminds me of anorexia statistics.

Also, one other thing. One of the sure signs of a bankrupt argument is ad hominem attack.

jen | March 5, 2008, 6:33pm | #

To believe that women are "crying rape" out of regret is so offensive and a. buys into the myth that women are vengeful and hysterical and b. that we have a legal system that actually prosecutes and convicts these offenders. It's NOT happening... even for the very, very few cases that wind through the legal system. I encourage you to meet with someone from your local rape crisis center and really listen to what it's like there. Ask them questions, engage them in a dialogue about this topic. Don't just dismiss an entire movement because it's not what you want to believe.

Ismone | March 6, 2008, 10:14am | #

Ummm, hey skipper, my expierence as a college student (a few years back) who people confide in doesn't leave me surprised about the rate. Particularly since it includes attempted and completed rapes.

The DOJ's studies conclusions are wrong becuase you think there aren't any secondary effects? With no evidence re: secondary effects? Why am I supposed to believe that? Do you think that is your strongest argument?

Re: more women in college: there are also more men in college now. Before men and women attended co-ed institutions, they still socialized. People still dated. And you STILL haven't produced any data to show that there either has or has not been an increase in (1) rape rates or (2) secondary effects.

How do you know the centers are "virtually empty." Have you visited them, or are you just taking EVERYTHING MacDonald says on faith. Could it possibly be that the stigma surrounding rape prevents women from coming forward? Most of the women (and both men) I knew who were sexual assault victims did not get any help. Because (it seemed to me) they were ashamed and had difficulty coming to grips with what happened to them. I can tell you that the rape hotline at my rather large university was always recruiting, and that if I'd had a car, there would have been a very real need for me to be a "rape companion."

BTW, if you look at the NCVS (National Crime Victimization Surveys) each year 5-7% of the victims are males 12 years and older. How many male rape victims have you met? I have only met two who were adult victims, and one who was a molest victim (at least from what they told me.) But the numbers are much higher.

Does it really surprise you that victims don't jump to talk about this stuff?

And I think it is very easy for this stuff to be invisible to you. When I realized how insulated many men are from what happened to women, I started talking. I told my father and brothers and guy friends about the times I'd been groped in a bar, threatened while walking home (actually threatened---the man's words were "you're dead") and otherwise harassed. And the thing of it is, I don't go out much, I carry myself with a helluva lot of confidence (which is supposed to prevent this kind of stuff, at least somewhat) I know self-defense (and actually used it on one guy AT A FRIEND'S BIRTHDAY PARTY), and I'm ex-military. I am about the dumbest target some lowlife could pick. So if they pull stuff like that with me, how much the worse is it for women who lack my confidence and apparent physical abilities?

jen | March 6, 2008, 10:43am | #

Hey Skipper--

How do you KNOW campus rape centers are virtually empty? That is absolutely the opposite of my experience working in one. Is Heather MacDonald your only source for this? If so, I would suggest you find a new way to get accurate information.

And to reinforce what has been said in these comments repeatedly-- there is NOT one rapist for every survivor. It is a small group of perpetrators impacting a large number of victims.

Ismone | March 6, 2008, 1:53pm | #

Ummm, so your answer to the DOJ study is?

(Doesn't hold breath.)

I don't call it a crisis. I call it a crime.

Shouting Thomas | March 7, 2008, 9:47am | #

"And can't we all agree that it should be illegal to rape (have nonconsensual forced sex with someone) whether it happens to 1 in 4 women or 1 in a hundred, whether they call it rape or not, that rapists are criminals and should be punished?"

Rape is against the law. We have agreed on that.

Randomly accusing men of rape, when you are unwilling to bring charges and no conviction has been returned, is demagoguery. These are the tactics of Nazis and Bolsheviks.

Stephen Thomas | March 7, 2008, 12:02pm | #

The random, unsubstantiated allegations against men that I'm talking about are precisely the ones you've just made.

You are engaging in demagoguery because you want power and access to government money.

You are certainly correct that males are far more likely to be the subjects of violence.

You are an ideologue, indoctrinated by a crazy college system.

You need to find something better to do than engaging in that favorite pretense of the modern college student, posing as a victim of something or other.

You are engaging in the slimiest, lowest political tactics possible. You aren't a saint engaged in reform. You are lying down with the dirtiest of dogs. As I said, these tactics are the tactics of Nazis and Bolsheviks.

The rape and sexual abuse hysteria is the Reichstag Fire of the left.

Ray | March 12, 2008, 8:37am | #

"Actually, the data is (1) the Koss study and (2) the DOJ study (which produced a 1 in 5 number). (For the DOJ study, go to the link I posted upthread, and click on the link to Mary Koss's rebuttal in the text of the article.)"

Ismone:

You never posted any link "upthread" so how about posting it now.

Ismone | March 12, 2008, 12:52pm | #

To Ray:

This is the link I posted upthread:

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0302hm.html

It takes you to Heather MacDonald's follow-up piece, which includes the following link to Mary Koss's rebuttal:

http://www.calcasapublicpolicy.org/?p=433

Mary Koss, in her first paragraph, discusses a DOJ study that produced a 1 in 5 number.

Doing some searching on my own, here is the DOJ study she referred to, because it has a 1 in 5 number of attempted or completed rape.

"At first glance, one might conclude that the risk of rape victimization for college women is not high; “only” about 1 in 36 college women (2.8 percent) experience a completed rape or attempted rape in an academic year. Such a conclusion, however, misses critical, and potentially disquieting, implications. The figures measure victimization for slightly more than half a year (6.91 months). Projecting results beyond this reference period is problematic for a number of reasons, such as assuming that the risk of victimization is the same during summer months and remains stable over a person’s time in college. However, if the 2.8 percent victimization figure is calculated for a 1-year period, the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter.18"

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

I realize my wording was unclear, what I meant was that if you go to the MacDonald link, you can click on the Koss link, which discusses the DOJ study.

Although the study notes that such forward projections are "problematic" it does provide support for Koss's study. Even 2.8% x 4 is 11.2%, and that is only including rapes during college, and is way too high.

Christina Hoff Summers reworked Koss's data to 1 in 12, which again, is way too high. I also disagree with how she did so, because I have met a number of rape victims who had a really hard time describing their experiences as rape. (Heck, you and I may have a hard time describing some things that happened to either of us as felony assault.)

Me as Well | December 2, 2008, 11:56am | #

I apologize... I must be totally delusional...still over 20 years later after I was "NO RAPE VICTIM", (TOO) and even NOW still "fabricating" Rape Trauma Burial Nightmares! FU.

A man | February 5, 2009, 6:07pm | #

I can't comment on the rape debate itself. I do believe it is wrong to use statistics to enforce a political motive. The 1/4 statistic is irrelevant anyway to anyone but the FBI. The statistic I would like all college women to hear is the number of rapes reported at their college the previous year.