Jewher Illham joins to discuss the hard topic of the Chinese persecution against the Muslim Uyghur population. We expose the origins of the years-long victimization as well as the Uyghur’s fight against the oppressive Chinese government. Jewher also shares her personal story of fleeing China and her fight to free her father from prison.
Jewher Ilham is the daughter of Uyghur scholar Ilham Tohti, an internationally noted moderate voice who was dedicated to bridging the gap between the Uyghur people and the Han Chinese. She has testified on behalf of her father before the U.S. Congressional-Executive Committee on China, met with a number of government officials including former Secretary of State John Kerry, and received numerous awards worldwide on behalf of her father. She was the key speaker at 2019’s Ministerial to advance religious freedom hosted by Sec. of State Mike Pompeo, and she has also spoken to President Trump at White House about the Uyghurs. She recounted her experiences in her 2015 book: Jewher Ilham: A Uyghur’s Fight to Free Her Father.
Transcript
Beverly:
And welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg, and on today’s episode, we discuss a hard topic, the very real tragedy of the Chinese persecution against the Muslim Uighur population. We’ll get into the origins of the victimization, as this has been going on for years, as well as the Uighurs’ fight against the oppressive Chinese government. It’s an honor to have on human rights activist, Jewher Illham to talk about all of this, including sharing her own personal story of fleeing China and her fight to free her father from prison. Before we get into the discussion a little bit about Jewher, Jewher Illham is the daughter of Uighur scholar Illham Tohti, an internationally noted moderate voice, who is dedicated to bridging the gap between the Uighur people and the Han Chinese.
She has testified on behalf of her father before the US Congressional Executive Committee on China, met with a number of government officials, including former Secretary of State, John Kerry, and received numerous awards worldwide on behalf of her father. She was also the key speaker at 2019’s Ministerial to Advance Religious Freedom, hosted by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. And she has spoken to the president, President Trump, at the White House about the Uighurs’ plight. She has recounted her experiences in her 2015 book, A Uyghur’s Fight to Free Her Father. I encourage you all to get it, but it truly is an honor to have her here today to share her own story, and also to give us a state of affairs for the Uyghur population, as we know that the persecution has been increasing. So, Jewher, thank you so much for joining us.
Jewher:
Thank you very much for having me today. Thank you.
Beverly:
And I know you talk about this in your book. It talks about your fight to free your father, but that also starts from a story about leaving your father at an airport in China, thinking that he was going to be joining you to come to the United States but was not able to. So, why don’t we just start there? First of all, what was the work of your father? And then, why was he joining you to come to the United States?
Jewher:
Sure. 2013, February 2nd was the day when me and my father had planned to come to the United States together, and that was also the last time I saw my father in person. My father was invited by Indiana University as a visiting scholar. He was given the opportunity to teach and take classes at IU for a year. And I was only planning to stay for a month, less than a month, during my… in China, we used to call it winter break, but obviously, in English, it’s called Christmas break. So, I was not planning to stay long, but things have changed. And now, it’s my seventh year in the United States, and it’s my seventh year being apart from my family. My father was arrested at the airport.
Due to the fact that I was a teenager in 2013, I appeared to have no threat to the police officials at the airport, and they allowed me to leave. My father also insisted that I should leave when we were at the airport. I think that was probably the best decision my father had ever, ever made for me, even though I strongly resisted at that time and against that idea. At that point, at an 18 year old girl’s head, it didn’t make sense to me that why would I be leaving to a strange country by myself without speaking the language, without knowing anyone, without having a family member with me?
Beverly:
Talk a little bit about your father’s work. What was he doing? Was it solely about bringing awareness to the increased persecution against the Uyghur population? Or what exactly? And I know that they’re arresting people who are innocent there, but did your father realized that he was in danger of being arrested when he went to the airport with you?
Jewher:
First of all, my father was sentenced and charged for being a separatist, and he was suspected to become someone who advocates for violence. And he was called out as a extremist, which all of those accusations are completely false, and it’s actually the opposite of who he was. In the early 2000s, he started helping out with an organization to rescue Uyghur homeless children, and he realized that there’s so many deeper reasons behind why there are so many Uyghur homeless children. So, he started focusing his researches on the Uyghur region, and he realized that it’s not only about those Uyghur children’s parents abandoning them, a lot of them were because those Uyghur children were being kidnapped. And there are just social-economic problems in the region in general, lack of hospitals, lack of proper education system, et cetera.
So, he realized that there are so many stereotypes among Han Chinese towards the Uyghur people, and that is all because lack of understanding. Therefore, my father created this website called Uyghur.com to provide a platform where people can find information about not only about the Uyghur people but also about the Han Chinese so Uyghur people and Han Chinese can create understandings. The source of information are very limited in China, especially since social media platforms like Instagram, Twitter, Facebook are all banned, and searching engine platforms, like Google, are banned. YouTube is banned in China. So, the way where people can have access to the true Information is very limited. Where people can get information is the government’s media, that’s CCTV.
So, this website provided a perfect platform. In the beginning, it went really well. It attracted lots of attention, not only inside China, but also outside of China, and that considered a big threat to the Chinese government. There’s a reason the Chinese government banned all of those social media platforms and those searching engines from the West. I believe it’s because the government might have a fear of people having a freedom to have access to all those free information. And my father was exactly the person who was trying to provide those free information to everyone, to provide them a platform to freely discuss what they think and what is the history of this region, what is the social-economical background of this region and of this group of people? Creating this understanding can minimize the gap between certain groups, between the Han Chinese and Uyghur people, and my father believed this is a way to enhance the peace in this region. But the government didn’t think so, and instead, they locked him up in a prison, sentenced him to life, and gave him a hat which called separatist.
Beverly:
Let’s talk a little bit about growing up in China as a Uyghur in the Uyghur population and being Muslim. Did you feel, as a little girl, that there was a lot of persecution, or was it more just lack of understanding, maybe some bias, maybe racism, but not necessarily persecution from the government? So, has this increased? Of course, it’s received national intention now, even those videos, the drone footage showing Uyghurs with their handcuffed, looking like they’re being escorted off to concentration camps. There’s been a lot of focus, but did you see, as a girl growing, that the persecution was increasing?
Jewher:
I definitely believe that things are getting worse and worse and worse. I don’t even know how many worse I can put after this. I remember, when I was little, things were not that bad, and now when I see what is happening, I don’t even know what words to put to describe it anymore. Luckily, I was born and raised in Beijing. I did not suffer that much of discrimination or torture compared to a lot of Uyghur… same people in the same age, but I did have to suffer some sort of discrimination, even though I was born and raised with those Han Chinese peers. When somebody lost something in the classroom, they would assume I’m the person who stole it, and if there’s a weird smell coming out somewhere, they would assume I had that smell on my body.
And there’s just a stereotype people think because of how the media portray the Uyghur people, the Uyghur community. When there’s something stolen, they automatically start suspecting the only Uyghur in the classroom is the thief. And when the room is not that clean, is not smelling that fresh, because of how media portray us as a non-hygienic group and not very careful with personal hygiene, they automatically suspect that the only Uyghur girl in the class is the source of the best smell.
And growing up, I had to get used to it. Especially when I was a teenager, it hurts my feelings, it hurt my feelings a lot, sometimes even pushed by my classmates to the ground and then get bullied. And even though the level of bullying I can’t say was… I mean, I did have lots of great friends supporting me at the same time. I don’t not want to completely just say, “Oh, it was a disaster.” I did have Han Chinese friends supporting me, but I did also have Han Chinese peers bullying me because of who I was, just simply because of my identity, even though I spoke the same language as them, I go to the same class, I grew up and I go to school and we have the same books and I see them every day. But people would treat you differently just because of you’re a Uyghur. And I believe that the situation is worse in the Uyghur region.
I used to go home every once a little while to the Uyghur region to visit my grandparents, and some might have complained to me that it is very difficult for some of them to have job opportunities, equal job opportunities as the Han Chinese in the local region, even though it is called Uyghur autonomous region in Chinese. But Han Chinese are still prioritized during the job selection, even though they might have the same education background and same connections, but being a Han Chinese, it is considered better compared to being a Uyghur for people who’s trying to hire employees.
Beverly:
And I know that we do not know the numbers, but we know that tens of thousands of Uyghurs have been in prison. We’ve heard the stories about the torture, very similar… People make a lot of comparisons to World War II and the Nazi concentration camps. So, I want to talk about what you know about the persecution today and then go back to your father. Have you spoken to him? Have you heard any information about him since you found out that he was in prison for what they called of being a separatist?
Jewher:
Yes. So, my father was actually one of the very first Uyghur from the Uyghur community who was arrested, and he was actually the first person in China that was sentenced to life. He was the first after the cultural revolution. And before 2017, in between 2014 to 2017, my father was allowed to be visited by our direct family members every three months, even though compared to the other political prisoners, no matter Han Chinese or just any other political prisoners, family visits are granted for every month, but for my family, it was every three months. And that was also taken away in 2017.
I haven’t heard any news of my father since 2017. I don’t know if he has been transferred to another prison, if he has been transferred to a camp, if he has been transferred to a labor factory, or if he has been killed. But sometimes, I actually do prefer not hearing from him because at least I didn’t hear the news of him being killed. But on the other hand, I do wish to hear something of him so I know he’s safe and he’s alive. And he’s not the only person in my family who had to suffer from the regime.
My cousin, Naralia, she was taken away, as well, in late 2016. She was sentenced for 10 years for having my father’s photo and his article in her phone. And maybe you have heard, there are checkpoints. China is a police state, especially the Uyghur region. There are police checkpoints every few blocks. People are required, it’s mandatory for people, to turn in their phones, and their phones can be confiscated without any reasons by those police on those checkpoints. And she was on her way to a shopping mall and she was stopped at one of the checkpoints, and the police requested to search her phone and found a picture of my father and his article. And she was asked, “Why do you have this?” And she said, “He’s my uncle,” and they asked to confiscate this phone and asked to take my cousin away. She refused and said, “He’s my uncle. I have the right to have any information of him no matter if it’s bad or good,” and she was sentenced for 10 years because of that.
And I have other family members who are sent to camps. There were released after two years of being tortured in the camps. I haven’t been able to speak to them personally because, obviously, they’re afraid to speak to me out of fear. I was not able to directly be in touch with them. Most of my family members in the Uyghur region have all blocked me or deleted me from the… We each had the social media account that we use to communicate in the past. It is quite lonely to-
Beverly:
Let me ask about that… Yeah, I wanted to just ask you a question on that. I’m sure that that’s so hard because this is your family and you want to be in touch. Is there a part where you are glad that they did it because you know you do pose a security risk to your family? And I want to pick up on that just of how it’s been for you. You are speaking out. Do you have to be careful about how this could come back on family members?
Jewher:
Yes. To be honest, I am very scared every single day that my speaking out could harm my family. I have two little brothers and my stepmother, they’re all in China now. Every day I’m afraid me speaking out could harm them, could make their opportunity to go to school be taken away. Their student status might be affected, just like what had happened to me when I was in high school, my student status got affected because of my father’s speaking out. And I was afraid they will do the same thing.
But I remember what my father did. My dad knew he was going to prison, knew it was going to affect our family, but he also, he continued because he knew that it is a bigger problem. It is not completely about my family member anymore. That all the Uyghurs, all the Muslims are brothers and sisters, and all those Uyghurs are our brothers and sisters. They’re just another person’s sister. They’re just another person’s moms or dads or uncles or aunts. And if I don’t speak out, if I don’t try to get the words out, and those stories are buried in China, and nobody would ever know Illham Tohti, another Naralia, or another Jewher, or anyone, their names can never be told and their stories are buried and they might be disappeared, they might die, and they might never be able to meet their families anymore. And my father made that choice, and this is my choice, too. I know that I am very scared, and I also feel guilty every single day for if anything happens to my family. But this is a choice that I made, that I have to speak out.
Beverly:
And I want to talk about when you got to the United States and this journey that you’ve been on to write a book and to tell the story and making this decision and following in your father’s footsteps in so many ways. And I know he’s so proud of you for doing what you’re doing, if he’s heard what you’re doing. What was it like for you being, I think you said, 18 years old, landing at a US airport in Indiana, not speaking the language, where did you start? I mean, your world was turned upside down, and how have you gotten to the place you are today where you are able to speak out and have the courage to do so?
Jewher:
There were so many unfortunate things happen to my family, to my community, but I still consider myself a lucky person. All my family members are great people. They have dedicated their lives to help people, and I think their goodness have brought so much influence on me. Because of their work, so many people, strangers, have reached out and they were willing to give their hand to help me. When I first came here, I didn’t know anyone, but I had one name card in my pocket, which my father put in my pocket at the airport.
The owner of this name card only met my father once. I mean, he used to be the Dean of the Central Eurasian Department at Indiana University, and he was the person who invited my father to IU as a visiting scholar. He knew that my father was arrested at the airport because he saw it on the news, and he knew I was coming to the US alone. He came to expect me at the airport. And his name was Elliot Sperling. He passed away in 2017. But he’s a person that plays a role in my life just as important as my father. He was a mentor to me. He helped me. He taught me to be strong, to be like my father, and he helped me learn English, he helped me register in intensive English program. He guided me a lot and told me that you can live freely and you can express your ideas. You can tell people your stories without having to be stopped by the government. You can, if you choose to.
And in 2014, April, was my first time speaking out in public about my father’s story, and it was under his encouragement. And I really appreciate his help. May he rest in peace. And there are so many people just like him who gave me huge help and who made me who I am today and who those people helped me helped the Uyghur community to get these stories out. Because, to be honest, in 2013, there were very few people knew who Uyghurs were. When you said Uyghur people, they had no idea there were even Muslims in China. When I said Uyghur people, I always had to say, “Do you know Tibetans?” They’re like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Dalai Lama people.” And I say, “Oh, Uyghur people live next to Tibet.” And this is how I used to introduce Uyghur people, and it’s sad.
But nowadays, with so many Uyghur activists’ efforts, there are more and more people that they are aware of the Uyghurs, and sadly, it is because of such a tragic way they know the Uyghur, because of the camps. I wished it was from another way, but I appreciate that this little attention that we already got, and I do hope more people in the world can be aware of what is happening and be aware of there’s a community called Uyghur people and there is a community [inaudible 00:23:03] Kazakhstan in China, and there are [inaudible 00:23:06] and Uzbeks in China, but they’re also under persecution because of this region and just because of who they are.
Beverly:
Let’s talk about, you mentioned the word hope, the hope that you have for the Uyghur people and the other individuals and people group that you just mentioned are persecuted there, as well. Because there is increased attention on what China’s doing, in some respects, I would assume that that puts more pressure on the Uyghur people and their persecution of them. But are you hopeful with this international attention, with President Trump speaking out, with other elected officials speaking out, that there could be some type of relief for the Uyghur people? What is your hope? What do you think can actually help bring those people back to their families?
Jewher:
I am a very optimistic person. I am very positive, just like how my father raised me, and I do believe there’s hope. And my father always used to tell… He used to tell me that there’s an end for everything. If something has begun, then there’s an end to it. Nothing is eternal, nothing is forever. And I believe this tragic issue, incident, will end one day, but in order to make that ending date come sooner, it’s with international communities’ help. And I do think, I do appreciate, the US government’s efforts on ending this, and I really do hope that there’re more countries can join the during the cause. And I think the US government needs to better coordinate with efforts in other countries and participate as part of a coalition in order to respond to this Uyghur issue, which I call it genocide. And I do think engaging with multilateral institutions, can provide a good basis, and it can help speeding up the ending of this tragic time.
Beverly:
Final question for you before we close today. For those listening who wants to know what they personally can do, what do you tell people who hear your story and they say they want to help? What can we do?
Jewher:
I see people’s comment on my Instagram or on my Twitter, say, “Oh, this is so sad. This is so bad. I wish I could help. I feel so powerless. What can I do?” But I want people, whoever is listening to this, I want you to know you are very powerful. The reason the government wants to shut us up is because they know how powerful people can be. That’s why your words, your actions can be contribute in a tremendous way. For example, you can help by boycotting any products that are made or implemented in the Uyghur region that are involved in Uyghur forced labor. There are brands like Nike, which refused to end their supply chain in the Uyghur region. I think you can stop purchasing from brands like this. There are over 70 brands on the internet, you can look it up. You can find that they are involved in exploitation of the Uyghur forced labors. You can help by boycotting those brands.
And you can also donate to certain nonprofits like Uyghur Human Rights Project, [inaudible 00:26:59] foundation, and also, I am currently working on a documentary film, which has focused on the Uyghur human rights violations in China. And we are also looking for funding. Any dollar or even 50 cents will be a tremendous help. I would really highly appreciate. And there’re also refugee programs, Uyghur refugee programs you can pay attention to. They need volunteers. And if you’re a school teacher, you can help provide mentor assistance. Some students, they’re struggling to apply to universities. There’s so many things you can do. If you’re a Christian, if you’re a Catholic, you can talk to your local friends, your neighbors, people you met from the church, just tell them. It doesn’t matter what religion we are believing in. We’re all humans [inaudible 00:27:51] and we are all equal. It doesn’t matter who we are, what’s our race, what our religion is. And I think that is very important that this is a time that we all stand together and fight the same issue, which is protecting each other.
Beverly:
Well, you are continuing the fight that your father started. I know he is proud of you. And for those who are listening to this and want to know more about your story, I encourage them to go get your book, Jewher Illham, A Uyghur’s Fight to Free Her Father. Go and pick that up. We so appreciate you sharing your own story and also giving us some helpful insight into what we can do. So, thank you so much for joining us on She Thinks today.
Jewher:
Thank you very much. Thank you.
Beverly:
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