On this week’s episode, Congresswoman Debbie Lesko joins to talk about her work to ensure a fair playing field for women and girls in competitive sports. She’ll give us details on the Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act and explain why it’s pro-woman, pro-equality, and pro-fairness.
Congresswoman Debbie Lesko represents Arizona’s 8th Congressional District. In May 2018, she was sworn in to the U.S. House of Representatives after winning a special election and was recently reelected for a full two-year term. For the 116th Congress, she serves on the House Judiciary, House Rules, and House Homeland Security Committees. She also serves as the Co-Chair of the Congressional Caucus for Women’s Issues. Prior to her role in the U.S. House of Representatives, Congresswoman Lesko served in the Arizona Legislature for nine years – the last three of which were in the Arizona Senate. She was honored by numerous organizations during her time at the Arizona Legislature, including, “Champion of the Taxpayer”, “Guardian of Small Business” and “Senator of the Year.
Transcript
Beverly:
Welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg. On today’s episode, I’m honored that Congresswoman Debbie Lesko has joined us to talk about her work, to ensure a fair playing field for women and girls in competitive sports. She’ll give us the details on the protection of women and girls in Sports Act, and explain why it’s pro-woman, pro-quality and pro-fairness.
Before we bring her on, a little about the congresswoman. She represents Arizona’s Eighth Congressional District, and she serves on the House Judiciary, House Rules, and House Homeland Security committees. She also serves as the co-chair of the Congressional Caucus for Women’s Issues. Prior to her role in the U.S. House of Representatives, Congresswoman Lesko served in the Arizona legislature for nine years. She was honored by numerous organizations during her time, including Champion of the Taxpayer Guardian of Small Business and Senator of the Year. Congresswoman, it is a pleasure to have you on She thinks today.
Rep. Lesko:
Thank you for having me.
Beverly:
Before we get into all the issues, we’re going to talk about revolving around the protection of women and girls in Sports Act, I just want to talk to you about this time during COVID. What has it been like for you to represent your district during a global pandemic?
Rep. Lesko:
Well, this year has certainly been challenging. As you said, I’m on Judiciary Committee so, first we had impeachment, months and months of that, which I thought was totally unjust, and then we had COVID and people are scared. Rightfully so, especially at the beginning, when we saw the people in Italy that were really getting sick, some hospitals getting overrun and then New York. And so, people in Arizona were scared. They were locked up in their homes. There’s still some people like that. That’s why I think depression and suicide is a rising. People aren’t used to this different norm. I mean, parents are having to juggle and help their students do homework and schooling online. We’re just now in Arizona, starting to reopen schools. Some schools are reopening in-person, some schools aren’t. People are working from home. I just think it’s very important that people turn to God and place their faith in God, that we will get through all of this and life is going to get back to normal.
Beverly:
How have you been able to balance being concerned about public health and public safety, but also wanting people’s livelihoods to still be intact? How have you been able to wade through those really murky of what decisions to make?
Rep. Lesko:
Well, I’ve been a leader in reopening the schools for an in-person option. And so, what I’ve been advocating for quite vocally is that parents have a choice. So parents who think that it’s safe for their children to go back to school, should be able to have that in-person schooling choice and parents that don’t feel comfortable can keep their children at school. I think the same is true in businesses. And so, I’m a proponent, I should say, a proponent for reopening businesses. People have to do it safely. I believe in freedom and individual responsibility and individual choice. I do not support Joe Biden’s call for a national mask mandate, because I think different parts of the country are different. And so, it should be left up to the local governments.
Beverly:
As you just mentioned there, there’s been a lot of new stories this year. There’s impeachment, we started the year off with. There is then the pandemic that we moved to and all that’s gone into that. Now we have elections, which are front and center. But of course, the goal of this podcast is to talk about your work on women’s issues, specifically the protection of women and girls in Sports Act. This is an act that you have co-sponsored. Can you tell us a little bit about it? We at IWF like to highlight those issues that aren’t being talked about in the news a lot, but are still extremely important. So tell us a little bit about your involvement.
Rep. Lesko:
Well, you bet. I’m one of two women on the U.S. House of Representatives Judiciary Committee. And so, when the Violence Against Women Act and the Equality Act came up, I was probably the focal point and the person that spoke about it, not only in committee, but on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives.
What I want to make sure that your listeners know is there’s an attack, an attack on women. Basically in the Equality Act, which sounds wonderful, but in the Equality Act, which was HR5, it required, required schools and other organizations under threat of federal law to allow biological males to compete in girl’s and women’s sports. Also, allow them in showers, domestic violence shelters, all kinds of places. But we’re talking today about sports and that’s just not right. It’s not right. We have fought so long as women for our freedoms, our ability to stand up and believe in what we believe in, and now we’re going to be forced, forced to have biological males compete in girls and women’s sports? That’s not fair to the woman.
You know that the world is a little upside down when the Republican witness in Judiciary Committee was a Democrat woman who is a feminist, who is a lesbian, who agreed with us. She does not want biological males to be put in the same place as girls and women, because she doesn’t think it’s fair to women. Because, what the Democrats’ bills do, this HR5 and the other bills, is it says, “It is okay to do that, even if the women complain about it.” So the government is forcing schools, organizations, churches, all kinds of organizations to abide by taking in biological males even if the women’s privacy and safety is at risk.
I just don’t think that’s fair to women at all, and that’s what I co-sponsored H.R.5702, the Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act. Because, if girls and women work hard and they succeed in their athletic abilities, why in the world would we allow a biological male, who just happens to identify as a woman, and it could be he just identifies as a woman just for that race. There’s no guidelines, and then changes back to a male. Why should we let that happen to women and girls? It’s just not fair.
Beverly:
It’s not fair, and to give us a little explanation about those who are proponents of letting biological men compete against women in sports, are they doing this under the auspices that Title IX allows them to, so saying this fits in with anti-discrimination? Is that how they’re classifying it?
Rep. Lesko:
Well, I think that my democratic colleagues, unfortunately, in my opinion, are prioritizing transgenders over women. I think all people should be treated equally. That means that women should be treated equally too. Why should biological males that identify as women, which by the way, they can change. There’s no length of time, where there’s no doctor’s notice or anything, they just happened to say that they are a woman for that period of time. Why should they be taking away women’s rights at the objection of women and girls? This is just prioritizing one group of people over another group of people. My democratic colleagues just believe in this and I’m standing up for the right of girls and women. This isn’t right.
Beverly:
One of the things you mentioned is a colleague of yours who is a feminist, is a lesbian, have you found that there are many feminists who do stand beside you and do join those who are calling this out for what it is, and just unfair to women? Are you seeing these, in some ways, unlikely coalitions coming together?
Rep. Lesko:
Well, there’s definitely unlikely coalitions when the witness in Judiciary Committee for the Republicans was a Democrat lesbian feminist who agrees with the Republicans on this issue. And so, yes, definitely unlikely coalitions coming together. But I think the goal is always the same, and that is for equal rights, equal protections for everyone. Not putting one group of people, in this case, transgenders, over the rights of another group of people. In this case, girls and women.
Everybody should be treated equally, in my opinion. Having government, in the case of HR5, which by the way, passed the U.S. House of Representatives, has been stopped in the Republican-led Senate. But putting the rights of transgender people over the rights of women and saying if a biological male just identifies as a woman, that that person under the threat of federal law has to be allowed to compete in girls’ and women’s sports. I mean, that’s just wrong. I get attacked over it. I get called all kinds of names, even in committee. But you know what, I’m standing up for what I believe in and what I believe a majority of America believes in, and that’s everyone should be treated equally, including girls and women.
Beverly:
Well, we appreciate your work on it. IWF has endorsed this bill as well, so we agree with you. This fight is important, and IWF has highlighted different women who have brought forward lawsuits, who think it’s unfair that they’re competing against biological men. And so, the question I have is, how pervasive is this in sports right now, in K-12 education, in higher education? How often are we seeing biological men compete against women?
Rep. Lesko:
It’s hard for me to know. I don’t know the answer to that. However, with the Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives, pushing and passing HR5 and other bills, this is going to grow if we don’t say no, and if we don’t stop it. I bring this up in all kinds of meetings. I bring it up when I’m talking to different business groups, and it’s uncomfortable. It’s uncomfortable for me to talk about, because it’s not a subject that most people talk about. They’re like, “Oh, transgender issue. I don’t want to talk about it.” But I say to these people, after I talk about their particular business group and what we’re doing and what I’m doing and listening to them, I say, “Listen, I want to bring up another issue. That’s probably not on your radar screen, that’s probably very uncomfortable for you. But this will affect your business, because it is going into every aspect of our lives. I don’t think it’s fair to women and I don’t think its fair to girls.”
I have found that quite a number of people, I mean, most people are quiet and don’t really say too much, but then I always have people come up to me after I talk about it and say, “I didn’t even know that was happening. I didn’t even know there was a bill that would force schools to take in biological males, who say they identify as women, and let them compete in girls and women’s sports.” They didn’t even know it existed. And so, I think it’s very important for your organization to talk about this. Because, most people are hush-hush about it. They don’t want to talk about it. They’re embarrassed to talk about it. They’re afraid they’re going to get bullied. I’ve been bullied. I’ve been called all kinds of names, but you know what? We have to stand up to bullies, and we have to stand up for what we believe in for the rights of girls and women. That’s why I do it.
Beverly:
I’m going to play devil’s advocate here. What do you say to the accusation that you then are discriminating against the transgender community? For example, if there’s discussion about a transgender individual, has lived this way for years, maybe even has had some surgery, has had some hormone treatment and he, now referred to as a she, just wants to fit in? What do you say to the transgender community who just doesn’t want to be bullied, and they say, “This is who I am. I just want to live life as a woman”? What do you say to those who say you’re discriminating against that individual?
Rep. Lesko:
Well, I think that everyone should be treated equally. The legislation that my Democrat colleagues passed through the U.S. House of Representatives did not address how long a person has been a transgender. It doesn’t have any guidelines like saying, “Okay, you need a doctor examination.” Or, “You need a psychology examination.” Or, “There has to be a certain time.” It just says, “If you identify as a woman …” If you’re a biological male and you have all the male body parts and you just say, “I identify as a woman,” or a girl, then under penalty of the federal government, the schools, the organizations, the athletic organizations have to, have to take in this biological male and have them compete in girls’ and women’s sports. And so, that’s where I have a huge problem. I have a huge problem there, because there’s no, the person can change every minute. They could identify as a male one moment and identify as a woman the next moment. There has to be some kind of guidelines. This is just wrong, prioritizing one group of people over another.
Beverly:
I’m sure there are individuals in the transgender community who would agree with that as well. I know on certain other issues, they feel like their perspective is being hijacked by people on the left on occasion. But I want to touch on something you said earlier, and that was, speaking out regardless of the bullying, regardless of what is said against you. I found it fascinating. In the past month, we saw a poll showing that whether people identify as Republican or Democrat, the majority of people are afraid to speak out right now. Because of the polarization, because of the increased violence that we’re seeing. Just turn on your TV on certain networks and you will see that. What would you say to people who are afraid to speak out because they’re afraid of the backlash? Obviously you as a Congresswoman, you’re front and center, you’re a public figure. What would you say to individuals who say, “I’m afraid”? what encouragement would you give to them?
Rep. Lesko:
Well, I had the opportunity to talk to this about people all the time, because I walked door to door, door knocking, and I asked people if they want my sign in their front yard, if they want Donald Trump’s sign in their front yard. And so, I can see firsthand how people are afraid. Especially putting a Donald Trump sign in their front yard. They’re afraid that they’re going to get attacked. They’re afraid if they put a bumper sticker on their car, they’re going to get keyed. And so, this is a real issue.
Republicans historically have had the support of the silent majority, and so when I speak, I say, “We can no longer be the silent majority. We have to stand up for the future of our nation, and it’s up to every single one of us. It’s just like in a school yard. If we let people bully us, they’re going to continue to bully us. We have to stand up, and if we’re united, there’s more of us than there are the bullies. If we stand up together, we are going to win. We need to let these businesses know that have caved in to the radical left agenda and, in some instances, have fired workers that spoke up and said, “You know what? That’s not my values. I want to speak up for my Christian values.” We have to stand up united. It is so important. Otherwise, we’re going to lose our country.” This is what I say to people. “It’s important that all of us speak up. I know it’s hard. I know we’re going to get named-called, but who cares? It’s the future of our country at stake.”
Beverly:
Final question for you. Speaking about winning, where currently is the Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act? What is the likelihood that this could pass?
Rep. Lesko:
Well, for your listeners, I want to give them a 101 on politics. Okay? Here in the U.S. House of Representatives, it’s under Democrat control. That means there’s more Democrat Congress members than Republican Congress members. That means Speaker Pelosi is in charge of the agenda, and all of the chairman of all of the committees are Democrats. The Democrats passed and believe in HR5. They believe in requiring the government, under mandate of federal law, to require that biological males who identify as women be able to compete in girls’ and women’s sports. That means the bills that I co-sponsored has probably no chance. It would be a total miracle if a Democrat chairman and Nancy Pelosi let that be heard in a committee. That’s why elections matter. Elections matter because if we get back a Republican majority in the U.S. House of Representatives, then the agenda is set by the Republicans, who oppose that government’s mandate that allows biological males to compete in girls’ and women’s sports.
Beverly:
Well, Congresswoman, we appreciate your fight for women. We appreciate you also coming on She Thinks today and sharing your perspective on this important issue. So thank you so much.
Rep. Lesko:
Thank you.
Beverly:
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