On this week’s Bespoke Parenting Hour, host Julie Gunlock talks to writer (and coolest aunt on the planet!) Melanie Notkin, an expert on the emerging demographic of childless, often single women, which she wrote about in her memoir, Otherhood: Modern Women Finding a New Kind of Happiness.
Notkin and Julie discuss a wide range of issues—from David Brooks’ essay on the nuclear family, the important role non-parents have in children’s lives to the many myths and assumptions the public has about childless women, and why the more inclusive and understanding parents are of non-parents, the happier parents and children are overall! In addition, Notkin offers parents some good tips on how to honor the extended family members in their lives. Tune in!
Transcript
Julie:
Hey, everyone. I’m Julie Gunlock, your host for the eighth episode of The Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to the program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families, themselves, and most importantly, their kids.
In March, that was way back in March, it’s funny. I’m about to talk about this article in The Atlantic by David Brooks, which was very provocative. I saw it all over the place when it came out in March, but it came out in March, if I haven’t mentioned March enough, and that is when the schools closed and things were kind of chaotic then. I feel like I’m a little late to talk about this, but given that my guest today is going to talk about extended families, I thought it was really perfect to sort of remind people about this article, again by David Brooks in The Atlantic. It was called The Nuclear Family Was a Mistake.
First of all, I think that title is awful, and I don’t really think that it reflects what Brooks really meant to say in his essay. I don’t think he’s saying that nuclear families are terrible, but he does talk about the changes to society and how that has changed the nuclear family and really made it, I would say not supportive enough for families. It’s hard. This was a very long article and it’s hard to sort of summarize it in a few sentences, but he says that what we call the nuclear family today, which is the mother, father, 2.5 kids, the traditional one parent working outside the home, one maybe a stay at home parent or maybe working part time, they live in the suburbs. He says that this is a totally modern invention and I totally agree with him on that, and that it’s not what family used to look like or family looked like for most of history.
This is really not the provocative part of the article. But he goes on to talk about what families used to look like and how those families were really better for everyone, for both the parents and the child. He opens the essay by describing a scene from the movie Avalon. This was a movie that came out, it was a Barry Levinson movie that came out in the 90s. I loved this movie, although I will tell … I think people should watch it, but have some tissues ready because it’s kind of got a grim, very sad ending. But I remember watching this movie in the 90s. I haven’t watched it since, probably because it was so depressing.
Brooks is describing the scene but he doesn’t tell you he’s describing the movie, and instantly I knew he was describing Avalon. I love that movie so much and I recognized this scene, where he describes … There’s several scenes in Avalon where the family gets together for holidays and it’s a very loud household, there’s a ton of aunts and uncles and cousins and they’re all running around and it’s all loud and they all sit down to one of these tables where it extends into the living room. There’s the dining room and several foldaway tables and then there’s a kids’ table.
And it really struck me at the time because what that movie seemed like, and obviously to Brooks as well, it reminded me of sort of the stories that I’ve heard of my own mother telling me about these enormous family gatherings. My mom did have an enormous family. Her mom, my grandmother had 12 siblings. My grandfather, I think had 10. I feel bad for not knowing. I think you’re allowed to lose track after that many. She would describe these enormous family gatherings, holidays, birthdays, special events, communions, special events at the church, weddings, that kind of stuff.
So Brooks uses this movie Avalon and that scene, to describe that this is how humans have typically existed with these big networks of extended families, grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. And that this family, this large network of family would help and support one another. Brooks thinks that it’s this family dynamic, what he calls the extended family that is more of a natural family, but that it doesn’t really exist anymore, and at the very least, it isn’t that common. Again, Brooks’ main point here is that it has created significant problems within society, and within families that these don’t exist anymore.
He talks, I thought, really … I thought I loved this part where he talks about how extended families, these large networks of families have two great strengths. He talks about resilience, that if you have a large web of relationships among, say seven or 10 or 20 people, if the mother dies, there’s aunts and uncles and other siblings and cousins and grandparents who can sort of step into the breach and take care of those children that no longer have a mother. He talks about these extended families being able to handle unexpected burdens.
He talks about how the very tight knit, the four or five person nuclear family, the smaller family who’s apart from that larger network of family, it’s an intense set of relationships. If one relationship breaks, it affects everyone else. Whereas in a larger family, it’s like, “Eh, you know, these people are fighting. Well, you’ve got these other people over here.”
He talks about the second strengths of these extended families in their socializing force. He talks about how multiple adults can teach children right from wrong, how to behave towards others, how to be kind. It’s not just the parents teaching this. We as parents all know, you send your kid off to a play date and you get the report back from your friend who says, “Boy, your child is … They’re so well behaved. They’re so polite. They’re so nice.” And you wonder, “Are they talking about my kid?” But in some ways, it’s important that children be … The teaching of manners and again what’s right from wrong, that they hear it from more than just one person because they don’t always listen to their parent. So Brooks is really kind of establishing that these are really important parts of a network, of a large network of family.
He then goes on to talk about what has replaced that, that sort of natural dynamic. And this is where I begin to disagree with Brooks a little bit. He goes into talk about what has replaced that natural family, that natural network and he talks about sort of shared parenting arrangements. He talks about these shared parenting arrangements in the African-American neighborhoods, where there’s low rates of fatherhood, or he also talks about large groups of friends who sort of live together to support one another.
I’ve seen this dynamic in my own neighborhood, there are a large group of Hispanic … These are low income Hispanic families, recent immigrants, that often live in some apartments. There’s an area in my town where it’s a large Hispanic immigrant population, and they live in these garden style apartments. And one of my children played with a boy who lived in these apartments, and the moms would sort of … These were families where the mom and dads work a lot and they’re out of the house a lot. So on one mom’s off day, she would take care of maybe three or gosh, more like 10 kids that lived in that immediate apartment building, while all the other parents worked. Then on her days of work, there’d be another parent that would step in. So they would sort of arrange this for all week, where a different parent would take the role or maybe two or three. So Brooks is kind of talking about how this has sort of taken the place.
But the problem with this essay, and I really liked David Brooks’ essay here, and partly because it made me think. It really made me think about the effect of sort of the breakdown of family, and I’m not talking because just of divorce, but I’m talking about modernization, better transportation, telephones. People are more willing to live away from their families. I am sort of a product of that. While my mother grew up in a tight knit, very French-Canadian, very Catholic family in New England, I moved nine times before I was eight years old, and we very rarely saw our family members but we communicated with them with long distance phone calls and we would go to see them. We would get on a plane and we would go to see them but it wasn’t the same.
Part of what I have a problem with, with Brooks’ essay, is that he glosses over that some of these replacement attempts are exactly that. They’re attempts to deal with bad situations, when families break apart or when a father isn’t around. When he’s praising sort of the situation in African-American neighborhoods, where these single mothers will sort of coordinate to help take care of kids, I don’t think those mothers chose this. And he’s calling these sort of chosen families, but I don’t think a lot of moms would choose that. I think a lot of these mothers would like to have their husbands around or would like to have a father around to help. I feel like the same is true with many of these other alternative forms of what David calls kinship or chosen families.
He seems to suggest that these are simply replacements, or in some ways, I think he sort of suggests that these alternatives are better. And really the only criteria he’s using of their success is that they were chosen. I don’t feel like when they’re chosen … I feel like it’s easier to walk away also from chosen families. Whereas I doubt my mom or dad or my sister or my aunts or uncles would walk away from me. So I do disagree with some of what was written there.
But it is interesting, and I think Brooks really … Again, he doesn’t leave anything out. Right before he talks about the section on these kinship or chosen families, Brooks does talk, or he goes over the data on outcomes for children who are in some of these chosen family situations, and they’re pretty consistently worse than they are for stable, nuclear families. Which is some of what I was confused about with the Brooks’ piece. In particular, the statistics on abuse and neglect in these contexts is very alarming. And single parent households, there’s very high rates of poverty. The children in single parent households, even if they do have a network, these sort of chosen networks, they have lower grades, more absenteeism, higher dropout rate. There is a higher risk of sexual child abuse and many children have psychiatric problems and addictions later in life.
So, I think it’s important when we’re talking about some of these situations where people are sort of forced to choose these alternatives that it isn’t just always a happy ending. But I do think Brooks’ piece is a truly necessary examination of what family looks like today and he really gives us so much to talk about.
Today, we’re going to be talking a little bit more about the idea of family. What is a family and who makes it better? I have a great guest, Melanie Notkin. She is the founder of Savvy Auntie, a celebration of modern adulthood which is a multi-platform lifestyle brand for cool aunts, great-aunts, godmothers and all women who love kids. Welcome, Melanie.
Melanie:
Well thank you so much. I feel very welcome to be here.
Julie:
I always give people’s … It sounds ridiculous but I love to read people’s official introductions because I think there’s stuff in here that people should know about. Melanie is an expert on the emerging demographic of childlessness, often single women. She does really fascinating research in this area. Her data and insights on what she calls the PANK, professional aunts no kids, a phrase that she coined in 2008, has been featured in the New York Times, Forbes, CNN and many more outlets. She is the author of Savvy Auntie: The Ultimate Guide for Cool Aunts, Great-Aunts, Godmothers, and All Women Who Love. By the way, I will be purchasing this book for my sister this Christmas. Her memoir, I will also be buying this. Her memoir, Otherhood: Modern Women Finding a New Kind of Happiness, received a Booklist starred review. So I think everyone should go and find these books.
A decade ago, Melanie established Auntie’s Day, which is an annual day set aside to honor and celebrate all the other mothers in a child’s life. It is every fourth Sunday in July. This is a really cool thing, and we’re definitely going to talk about this, is the 12th annual … She created the annual, this year will be the 12th annual, right? I think so. This year is the 12th?
Melanie:
Yes. Yeah.
Julie:
Let me say this right. Savvy Auntie Coolest Toy Awards. This is something I really need. It will be released in the fall of 2020. It is a list of the coolest toys and games on children’s holiday wishlists, so that every auntie or mom can be the hero at the holidays. She is a contributor to the New York Post, the Washington Post, the Huffington Post, so many posts, and Psychology Today, and she appears regularly on national television, radio, podcasts like this podcast, and the web. I’m so glad you’re here today.
Melanie:
Well thanks again. I’m so happy to be here.
Julie:
I opened this show, and I had mentioned this to you, that I talked about the idea, David Brooks wrote this really provocative, I think provocative is a perfect word for it, in The Atlantic talking about extended families, the importance of other family members like aunts. I’ve also told you that I have a sister who is absolutely wonderful to my kids. She’s enormously generous. She’s very sweet to them. Sadly, she lives in Iowa, so we can’t see her very often, but she takes the kids for a week, a full week each summer, god bless her, and she never fails to pay attention to them and she gives them tons of attention.
In short, she’s really nurtured that relationship. I’m so busy and I always forget to call her. I forget to put them on the phone, but she’s worked really hard at nurturing that relationship. So I’m really excited to be talking about this a little bit more. Tell me why you started this movement, really.
Melanie:
I myself am a woman who does not have children of her own. This is by circumstance. I always expected, hoped, yearned for children of my own with a partner, with a husband, and both have not come true. I still have hope for the love, unfortunately, not for the children. With that said, when I was in my mid to late 30s, I realized that it was not just me who was fawning over my nieces and nephews. It was my friends and my friends’ friends. These little people in our lives, and sometimes they were even older kids, teens, this was and still is, the center of our life.
Again, by me, it was by circumstance. Others, although I don’t many who are child free by choice, but certainly for some it was, and/or by challenge. And yet, we would have these maternal instincts that are ready to go, rearing to go, and we are fortunate enough to be able to spend that energy on our nieces and nephews by relation, and also by choice. So I realized that there was this growing demographic of women who are having their first child later, if ever, and so I coined the demographic PANK, or professional aunt no kids. 80% or more of women without children of their own consider themselves an aunt to a child, again by relation or by choice.
Yet, when we talk about women in America, we tend to turn the W for woman upside down into an M for mom. We’re a little what I call momopic. But here is again, this growing demographic of women who really do care about not only the children in their life, family, and again sometimes that’s a family by choice, their best friends and their neighbors, et cetera. And yet, there was nobody talking to us. In fact, there was this sort of myth of us being this kind of like Sex and the City, we’re just too busy drinking cosmopolitans and having a different man every weekend and of course, while I’m sure that is true for some people, for most women, this is not a reality. So I thought-
Julie:
Let’s talk a little bit about that. I’m sorry for interrupting you, but let’s talk a little bit more about those myths and assumptions. I certainly don’t want to make sweeping generalizations, but I do feel like women, and sometimes on the right, sometimes a lot of women on the right tend to have a lot of assumptions about childless women, that it was, “Oh, you’ve just chosen a career, or you don’t like children, or you don’t want to be a mom, or you’re a femi-Nazi, or you’re just …”
I feel like it’s so funny because I feel like I could talk to you for two hours and this is just a podcast, but I’ve got to keep myself from going too far off on a tangent. But I do feel like there’s this sort of us against them. You hear this with mommy wars and stuff like that. Why do you think so many women, and again, I don’t mean to generalize but I feel like a lot of conservative women think that women without children, it’s always a choice, or they somehow have rejected a life of motherhood?
Melanie:
Sure. I have felt it personally and I know that it is something that many feel. And yet, most often is the furthest from the truth. Often enough, it’s the thing that women yearn for the most, and among conservative women, it’s the thing that they yearn for the most within the context of family. So to say, if you haven’t had a child, well then you have failed on so many levels because you have failed at finding a partner and you have failed at understanding the value of family and you’re missing out on all of that.
So, I think there are a few things going on here. Number one is the ability to signal, for those who are saying that to and/or of women who don’t have children, to signal that it could never happen to me.
Which is also a way of saying, “I would never put myself in that situation. That could never have happened to me.” Which is only just reassuring the fact that whether or not they are happy in their own situation, that it could never have happened to them. There must be something wrong with that woman, who looks like she has everything going for her, right? Because she’s generally speaking, statistics show that she is more likely to have a college degree and much more likely to have a master’s degree or other advanced degree. She is more likely to be affluent. There are a lot of things going for this woman, and yet, they look at her and say, “Well, if she’s so attractive in her lifestyle, it must be a choice.”
For women, I guess in some ways it is a choice. It’s a choice of love. It’s a choice to be with somebody who they want to be with for the rest of their life. It’s a choice to be with a man who would make a good father for their child. And yet, those choices which are good choices and smart choices are not choices that they haven’t made actively. So people will say, “Well, you know, it’s your career. You’re a career woman.” Well, there are no career men. Nobody makes an assumption that a man can’t work and pay the rent and get married and have children. And women are pretty good multitaskers. Or they’re just naïve about their fertility. Again, these women are generally college educated. They understand basic math. By the way, there is a reminder just about every 30 days more or less of her fertility.
Julie:
Well this is … It’s interesting that you bring it up. I also want to get your opinion on … Because I very clearly remember having conversations with my friends in my late 20s, in my early 30s, talking about continuing to put it off, continuing to put it off and really, I’ve talked to friends, obviously since having children and they’ve had one, but who have sort of said, “I wish I hadn’t waited so long.” Because then they have to get IVF or they have to go through very extensive fertility treatments or they just didn’t have the number that they wanted.
And I wonder if you could talk also about, which I sort of see on the other side, to be honest with you, I resent my doctor never talking to me about. Now, you could also say that was a bad doctor, right? And I think this has changed probably in the last couple years, but certainly in the 90s and after I was married in 2001, I felt like … and you mentioned Sex and the City, I think there was a little bit of that culturally going through with young women, of just putting it off, putting it off until mid to late 30s.
So I wonder if you could comment on, do you think that has changed? Do you think that in some cases, when you say it was a childless from circumstances or because they couldn’t actually have a child because of infertility problems or because they were starting late, do you think that that has changed, that there’s more open conversations about fertility now, that people are willing to … Do you agree with me? Do you think that that was sort of verboten for many years? Like oh, no, no, you don’t want to pressure women about having children?
Melanie:
I think there’s a lot going on, and I think with Generation X, the daughters of feminism, we’re the experiment in terms of we were born into a much more equitable world. I’m 51. I never thought I wouldn’t go to college. These things weren’t questions. Well, my mom stayed at home and had gone to trade school, and nobody looked down on her. There certainly wasn’t huge pressure on me. It was just basically a rite of passage, like my brother.
Yet, you’re right in that I don’t remember my gynecologist talking to me and telling me about the timing but I think the difference here is that, it’s not that I didn’t want it. When I moved to New York in 1993, I was interviewing for a job and I asked about maternity benefits. I was like 23 [crosstalk] something I was set on doing. I wasn’t putting it off, and I was doing everything I could to find love, and that’s the irony right there. The one thing that this demographic of PANK, professional aunt no kids, who they often have everything going for them. They’re pretty capable women. In fact, they’re capable of saying no to marriage to feel like they’re being taken care of, right?
They can figure out life and know every man should be loved. She’s not settling for what one might think are selfish reasons, whether that’s getting a roof over her head or having more time for more children, what have you. And yet, it’s not so easy anymore. So Gen X, again going back to the idea of experiment, where the guys our age, okay, so their mom, if she did work, she was likely a secretary, a teacher, or a nurse, or she was a homemaker, right? Yet, they look at the women that they’re dating and they are what they’ll call “high powered”, which means that they have a job that pays decently. Maybe they wear black more often than somebody on the farm, right?
And they want to feel like they’re contributing.
What happened is that as women became more masculine, because we were told everything boys can do, girls can do better, and we wore the big shoulder pads and the pantsuits and we did all that to empower ourselves. We became more masculine. And many certainly on the left and on the far left, radicals were, I don’t need a man, et cetera. Women still say that today. The truth is, we’ve proven we don’t need a man but what I think women want to do now or what men more so want women to do now is to show we need them, and not because we need them because we can’t figure out how to change a light bulb. It’s because men want to feel needed and we’ve kind of taken that away from many men. We haven’t figured out how to connect because we haven’t met each other. We keep passing each other.
Julie:
Well, it’s also just a constant drum beat of criticism of men. You look at commercials where the man is always stupid and the mom is always the bright one who comes in and even in [crosstalk 00:28:16]. Even in sitcoms, in sitcoms, it’s not always like this but more than not, it’s the mom who’s kind of the logical one and the man who’s kind of the buffoon. We also see this in the narrative that really bothers me, is this idea that men do nothing around the house. I know that the statistics, if you question, women will say, “Yeah, I do most of the housework, cooking, cleaning.”
But men, sometimes they don’t really drill down into the actual things that men do like cleaning out the gutters with the mice in it. I’d like throw up. My husband will come in and tell me all the disgusting things he pulled out of the gutters. He actually pulled … He tells me it was a mouse. I’m fairly convinced it was a rat, but he doesn’t want to tell me that because he knows I would then want to move. He takes the garbage out. He fixes the cars, the wifi. I don’t even know where the stupid thing is to turn off, you know? So I don’t like this pitting one another-
Melanie:
I agree.
Julie:
And I think it just makes men feel bad, and like you said, I think men do want to be needed. They want to be praised and recognized-
Melanie:
They want to know that they can contribute. Because here’s a woman who has everything going for her. Men have said, “Why do you need me?”
We have to tell them why we need them. So a couple of things, back on this idea that the women became more masculine, in turn to be fair, the men became more feminine.
Men became lazy when it came to dating. They said, “You know what? If you’re going to want to take charge, then I’ll just let you take charge. Why should I pick the venue for the date? Why shouldn’t I expect you to pay 50%?” And then the women are turned off because they’ve been giving the wrong messages, and again, we’re losing the connection. Then in terms of what you’ve said with the commercials and TV shows and movies, I would say the same, to your point, you kept saying the mom always solves the problem at the end, and mom’s the responsible, organized, capable one, while the single, childless aunt is the moron.
Julie:
That’s exact … Exactly. Exactly. Like Lori in Rosanne. I didn’t even think about that. You’re right. She’s always befuddled, always in trouble. And even in Frasier, one of my favorite … God, I’m aging myself here, but I still love Frasier, you know?
Melanie:
Yeah. Sure.
Julie:
The producer, she’s sort of this hard boiled, kind of …
Melanie:
Right. Career woman.
Julie:
Yeah. There were several single women in that, but they all kind of had that type. I totally agree, that’s very interesting. I didn’t even make the connection that there’s always this sidekick sister that’s always in need of rescue.
Melanie:
She’s either a drunk or a man chaser. There was a show Up All Night, where Maya Rudolph played, I guess like a talk show host. She was like 40, clearly a capable woman to have that job, and her producer who’s younger than her, it seems, they’re married and she has a baby my mistake. They didn’t intend to. But even though they didn’t really want children, all the sudden, the child, the baby came out of her lady parts. And all the sudden, she knew everything [crosstalk] to be a mother, even if she wasn’t perfect at it. Meanwhile, Maya Rudolph’s character comes in and she doesn’t even know how to hold a baby. Come on. Even in commercials, the same thing-
Julie:
Yeah. At the end of the scene, the baby is still alive because Maya touched it. Yeah, I agree.
I think also, it feeds into this … And I don’t mean to be critical of moms but it is weird how the fetishizing of motherhood, of … Here I am doing a parenting podcast, so I guess you could say … But I am amazed, and maybe this is because I’m out of the baby years, it’s not new to me. I’ve got a kid I’m going to have to teach him how to drive in two years, which is horrifying. But this idea that sort of mothers know best. The minute they have a child, suddenly the woman has transformed into a genius and she can do no wrong.
I think this also gets into, and this is kind of … I hadn’t planned on talking about this today. I think this is kind of fascinating. This idea that I think as families and this kind of gets back to the Brooks thing, but as extended families aren’t as big a part of families anymore, because people move away or people don’t live in close proximity, there is this idea that the mother is infallible, like she knows everything. She is never to be questioned, whether it’s the food you feed them.
I had a friend that used to come over to my house and she would come over with her grandson, and I have three little boys and they’d be running around half naked, jumping in the sprinkler, and she’d have her grandson. And her daughter-in-law had a list a mile long of rules. I mean, this grandmother, she was only a couple years older than me, but she was so nervous that she would break the rules.
And I’m horrible to admit this, I swear I am horrible to admit this, but I go inside and I come outside with popsicles, and all the kids are so thrilled. And the grandmother says, “Oh, is that organic, and is it all fruit? Does it have no sugar?” She had this like seven questions, rapid fire seven questions. And I said, “Yes,” to all of them and I am a liar because it was one of those horrible, all sugar water popsicles, you know, where you push up from the bottom.
Melanie:
Yeah.
Julie:
So, it’s interesting to me, I think the absence of extended families, the fact that today people aren’t, “Hey, could you go to your grandparents for a couple days, or could you go to your aunt’s for an hour or something?” That it makes the mother so much more sort of the authority on everything, right?
Melanie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sure. I think again there are a couple of things going on. I think that to some degree, I think that because we are so individualistic as a society, that moms in a way are doing it potentially. Again, I’m not a mom so forgive me all the moms and dads and everyone listening, but it’s almost like a survivor … I’ve got this. Look, I’m organized. Here are the spreadsheets. Here are the organic things we can have, cannot have. Because she is overwhelmed and this is a way to say I’ve got control. It’s a quantitative way to confirm control for herself, right?
But a child is often so happy to be with their aunt, with their uncle, with their grandparents where they can run wild, where they can have a little more freedom to kind of find themselves, to push the barriers a little bit. And in a way, it is an opportunity for the grandparent and certainly in my case, the aunt, maybe to break the rules a little bit. Now I don’t mean rules that would got forbid impair a child’s wellness [crosstalk] something they’re allergic to.
Julie:
Go play in traffic.
Melanie:
Right. That’s not what we’re saying, right?
Julie:
Right.
Melanie:
But they can take a little more risk because of course we take care of them. It’s just they can be a little more free to be in the company of another, with whom they know that they are safe, right? I say we’re not their mom, we’re not their friend. We’re their aunt, the perfect blend.
Julie:
Totally. Also, something about my children, sometimes people have told me, “Ease up” on me. Because we spend some time in the summer with another … These are friends, that we go to their house on the beach and we spend time with them, and I remember the husband going, “God, you’re tough on your … You’re really …” He was pretty nice about it, but you could tell he was like, “Geez, cut it out.” It’s because I’m with them all the time and they annoy me, and I’m so terrified that they’ll do something, like break something or whatever. So when you say, not jump out in traffic or eat something they’re allergic to, but an aunt, someone who isn’t with them 100% of the time, they’re not as annoying, right? Even when my kids come home from their grandparents-
Melanie:
Sure. You’re right.
Julie:
You know? They just-
Melanie:
Of course. Of course. Not only that, but eventfully, whether it’s a week with your sister or a few hours with their auntie who lives two miles away, we get to have a glass of wine sooner than mom does. We get to relax. We do get to go back to it, and even if it’s so hard to say goodbye to the kids, even if we want our own kids, whatever it is, it’s not all the time, and it’s exhausting. It is exhausting. I will say that for an aunt, I have a nephew who’s now 19, six in all, and the youngest are twins who are 12, but when they were young, and there are two sets of twins so believe me-
Julie:
Wow.
Melanie:
… I would come home pretty exhausted. But also because I’m “on”. Because I have to think about what my brother and sister-in-law would like. I mean, they always trusted me. That was never the issue. They didn’t have like very strict rules about a lot of things, but more so like was I giving them the experience that the kids want? Were the kids going to be too tired? Yeah, but it’s exhausting, but that said, I also know that, and this is obviously outside of COVID, what I call and what your sister does so beautifully, aunt-ventures. This time with the aunt, again whether it’s an hour, whether they’re sleeping over at auntie’s, whether it is a week away or whatever it is. It is time that is set aside for them and that bond.
To what you were saying earlier, Julie, this idea of how there is so much pressure on, where I was saying, we’re both saying there’s pressure on moms and parents altogether, but also that we kind of look at those who are not moms as not really … You wouldn’t get it or you don’t know or what have you. Really, what studies have found, I did a 2016 study, is that they looked at 20 nations of, at the happiness gap between parents and non-parents. Of those 20 nations, the United States was at the very bottom, I.e. they had the largest gap and it’s because we are not a communal society. We’re much more individualistic.
And we’re seeing a lot of this now with COVID as we’ve seen, especially as some workplaces are opening up again, or even before they were, understanding that it is extraordinarily difficult beyond for parents now, especially moms who tend to be the primary parent during the day when it comes to taking care of kids, to be at work and to homeschool their kids while the baby is crying. I can’t imagine. But that said, the idea that non-parents don’t have their own challenges at this time is sort of bubbling up to the top. I think it could be yes and.
In collective communities, where the parents recognize the value that non-parents, the role that they play, so that when a mom leaves at 5:00 sharp because she’s got kids or whatever it is, and the non-mom who works as a partner or below her, above her, or whatever in that department, is the one that picks up the slack. Resentment will begin, because that non-mom may be yearning for children of her own. She may have other things. She may have parents. She may be in the middle of IVF and nobody knows. I mean, who knows, right?
Acknowledgement and gratitude for what these women and men who are not parents do in the workforce, which enables the parents to be at home, if we think about it as a village, that’s how parents become happier people themselves, and the non-parents become happier. So I think that there is a real opportunity here, as we kind of create our new normal collectively, that we don’t further separate the moms and non-moms, but rather we find ways to literally work together so that we can raise these poor kids, who are themselves completely displaced with COVID.
Julie:
I think that reliance on coworkers, I certainly rely on my coworkers. I rely on my neighbors. I rely on non-family members, just because my parents don’t live … They’re not nextdoor. They only live about two hours away but I always joke that my parents chose that location for retirement because it was close enough to come visit but not close enough for emergency babysitting needs. So very smart parents. I have very smart parents.
Melanie:
Smart parents.
Julie:
Yes, but my sister obviously lives in Iowa. My husband’s family lives in Ohio. So it’s not like they can just run down to grandma’s house. But I will say one thing, and I agree, and certainly when it comes to coworkers who don’t have kids, I really think we need to be careful and not treat them like, like you said, they’re just drinking a cocktail on the deck and relaxing. But I will say one thing about my reliance on neighbors, my reliance on people in my church or whatever, I don’t feel as comfortable and part of that is because I think I’m naturally … I feel like everything’s such an inconvenience and I don’t want to ask for help and I tend to be a little bit more independent in that way.
I want to kind of bring this back to the David Brooks’ piece and ask your opinion on, I really do think that family and I’m talking biological, blood relatives, someone who is in your family, whether that’s an adopted sister but someone that you’re like … I’m not talking about your best friend. I’m really talking about my sister or my mom, or my aunt or my cousin. Because I think there’s a different dynamic there.
I don’t feel guilty when I ask my mom for help. I don’t feel guilty when I ask my sister for help, or a relative, my sister-in-law who I adore, who is my children’s other aunt, I should’ve brought her up, Janine. She’s wonderful. I love her, and I would never feel guilty if I said, “I need you to drive out here and help me.” She would. I had a lot of miscarriages. She was incredibly supportive to me during that period of my life and I never felt like I was inconveniencing her when I asked her for help during that period.
I do feel like when David Brooks talks about these kinship relationships or chosen families, maybe I’m odd but I feel like I would feel bad asking for too much help in those situations. So I feel like he was sort of glossing over some of … I don’t think it’s exactly equal. I think actual family is really important. Because David Brooks is talking about, okay, well what’s replaced it? But it really hasn’t. I don’t feel like that’s just a natural replacement, just relying on friends or neighbors. I feel like there is something very different about an aunt or a cousin or a brother or sister.
Melanie:
I agree. Let’s take COVID, great example, where again, we’re finding … We know, and David talks about it too in his piece, that men and women are marrying later, certainly college educated men and women are marrying later, if ever. And we are spending a longer period of time alone. So yes, it’s true that there are young adults who end up going back to their parents. They’ve been laden with all their student loans and other reasons, right? But I’m talking about sort of … When that health insurance ends, and the patience of parents ends and they’re on their own, so it’s like late 20s until whenever, they’re often on their own.
COVID was a great example because I have a number of single friends. I have a single male friend in my apartment building, and both of us have a little immunosuppressed and certainly were concerned in the spring and early summer when obviously the numbers were much higher here in New York City. And we took care of each other. If one went out, they brought for the other. Even going to the lobby to get the mail, we got for the other. We went shopping for each other. I have another friend, who again lives alone and her parents, as does my father, live in Canada. And her sibling lives in a different state, and we made sure again to take care of each other, to go on long walks for each other to make sure we weren’t getting lonely.
So, we do take care of each other. But because we have each other and sometimes we only have each other. Now it happens that my brother and sister-in-law were very generous. My sister-in-law went food shopping for me, which was … The amount of work she did for me was unbelievable. But here’s the thing, probably the reason, Julie, and I’ve come to know you over the years through social media. This is really the first time we’re having [crosstalk] conversation, but I bet that the reason why you don’t feel uncomfortable asking anything of your family members is because you’ve shown acknowledgement and gratitude and you still have your kids for that. Your kids may not do it directly, right?
But just showing the love. When they see their aunt and their eyes open and they run to her, that is all the gratitude she needs. With neighbors, with friends, with coworkers, it’s kind of different, right?
But imagine, if that neighbor that one day you needed a favor from, I don’t mean you specifically, I don’t want to put it on you.
But if those kids drew pictures, a card or something for that neighbor, there is nothing that neighbor would never not do or the coworker-
Thanks, because mommy came to my birthday party or mommy came to my play because you stayed at work. What that would mean to that-
Julie:
That is actually so … What you just said, a thank you note to a coworker who had to work later because you needed the time off or a pediatrician or something like that, that is so meaningful. I think that you’re right. That is such a gesture of goodwill and recognition of what they’ve done, which is never done. I shouldn’t say never. I bet you’ve done it. But I think we don’t … The actual giving a physical thing, like a thank you note from a child, that is-
Melanie:
It’s everything.
Julie:
It is everything.
Melanie:
It’s everything. It’s everything. It makes that non-parent, again, whether it’s the woman or man, feel like wow, I really contributed. I did something. Because we do have this little bit of a sense of entitlement. Well, I’m a parent.
Julie:
Yes, we do.
Melanie:
Right?
Julie:
Right.
Melanie:
Even while yes, maternity leave, paternity leave, all those things, we all agree those things are vital and we don’t even have enough of it. But in the meantime, there is somebody at work who’s doing more work and I know because I was that woman when I was working corporate America. Sometimes it can be actually a little painful for them, because not only are they doing extra work, they want to go on dates. I remember telling a boss, this was like 15-20 years ago, saying, “I know I have to stay late because the mom in the department has to go, but I have a date. I want to be a mom.” I literally said that.
Going back to what we were saying earlier, the best answer to those questions of why don’t you have kids? Don’t you want kids? So what’s wrong? So your marriage, your career, did you choose career? The answer is, Julie, it’s really something that people forget. People don’t recognize is probably … Not even probably, I know is the best answer, and that is the truth. The truth is, no. The truth is, I so want to meet somebody. I so want to be in love. Sometimes I cry because everything I ever wanted is elusive to me, and it’s not because I don’t try. I don’t have children, and for these women for whom it is true, not because I don’t want children but because it hasn’t happened yet.
Do you know anybody to set me up with?
Julie:
I will tell you.
Melanie:
Change the conversation, right?
You can’t expect other people to talk to you the way that you want or ask you the questions the way that you want to hear them or what have you, if you don’t change the script.
Julie:
That’s right.
Melanie:
You’re just as guilty if you don’t respond honestly, and if you respond in a way that’s kind of obnoxious or is kind of rude, that doesn’t help either. Just be honest. Sincerity is really powerful.
Julie:
Sincerity is really disarming. It really is, and it really takes-
Melanie:
Isn’t it?
Julie:
Actually, it feels good. I think in some ways, when I was struggling after my husband and I got married and we were trying to have children and I was struggling, I dealt with terrible feelings of what is wrong with me? What is happening? It was such a dark, dark place to be, and there were times when I wasn’t honest and gosh, it took longer to plain the lie than to be honest about things, and there was nothing wrong. Often, you would find out that the person had struggled or was struggling or was having some similar struggles. I can’t agree with you enough on that.
I want to just, before I burst into tears because I feel like the back of my throat tingling, but I want to shift a little bit to, you had talked about … I love what you said about a thank you note to a coworker who’s worked late or someone who doesn’t have children, and recognizing what they’ve done, the sacrifice that they’ve given to you so you can be with your child. But what can people do … This is something I struggle with because my sister lives so far away. I put her the phone with the kids sometimes, or my kids always make personalized birthday cards but it always feels like I’m waiting for those moments, like a birthday or Christmas, or gosh, it’s been a week, let’s call Aunt [Teen 00:53:02], you know?
But what are some things you suggest for parents to help their kids also, and also be more independent in doing this on their own? What would you recommend that parents do to make the aunts in their lives feel special? The extended families but specifically the aunts. I’m going to be selfish here and ask specifically about how could kids … and I’m talking a little bit older kids. I’ve got a 13 year old now, an 11 year old, a 10 year old. They’re certainly able to do some of this stuff on their own. Actually, he’s 12. My middle kid is 12. I’ve got to get that right. What would you suggest?
Melanie:
A few things. Number one is, I don’t know if your 13 year old has a phone yet or texting and such-
Julie:
No.
Melanie:
… and no judgment either way-
Julie:
He has an email account. So I am sort of anti-technology in that way, but he does have an email account.
Melanie:
I get it. Right. That’s why, with trepidation, obviously some do, some don’t, what have you. Before long, he will. Of course, by that time, he will be in his non-communicative time of adolescence where you’re lucky if you get a grunt with two syllables in it, like uh-huh (affirmative). So yeah, that’s going to be … But the aunt should know, my nephew … I remember, my sister-in-law once apologized. I’m like, “No, no, no. I think it’s so sweet to have part of his adolescence, like he’s grunting. Like it’s a milestone.” It’s so lovely now that he’s 19 that I get like three sentences in a text from him.
Julie:
Nice.
Melanie:
It’s like wow. Right. I think that … They’re less independent in terms of they don’t really sort of have their own cellphone where they’re texting or calling their aunt, but I think that telling them so that they know it’s cool with you, is Aunt Teen says you can call her anytime and sometimes she won’t be able to talk for very long, or she’s at work or what have you, but she loves hearing for you. Not as a like, you know, it is Easter, did you call your aunt? It’s not that.
Julie:
Right, right.
Melanie:
It’s the lines are open, right?
And that it doesn’t have to be all three of them at the same time. They can each their very individual relationship with her, and sometimes they will bond together over something they have in common. Again, I have two sets of twin nieces. One is what I call my, and I have a pun for everything, an aunt pun, my fashion-me-sta. She’s 17 and we can text and facetime, et cetera, about, “Oh my god, [Zara’s] having a sale. Okay. Let’s plan what we’re buying.” So we have that, right? We bond over different things. I promised her that new Revlon hair tool last Thanksgiving. I had it with me. I’m like, “Do you want this?” Her like eyes opened up, for Hanukkah. I’m like, “Well, there you …”
Now my other niece and I don’t chat or text as often, but she’s the one who for Hanukkah, I gave a complete anthology to Joan Didion, and we read it and have conversations about various essays and books of Joan Didion, which is a completely different relationship.
The idea is it doesn’t have to be equal. It could be different and one of your boys may be more communicative and he may be the one to want that connection. It could be your middle child.
Right? So that’s a good idea, that it doesn’t have to be sort of holiday related, and also that the aunt should feel free to just call to speak to one of them or just email one of them. Again, sometimes like especially when I [inaudible] oh my god, I don’t have an hour to speak to all of them, especially when they’re little and you can barely understand.
And one more thing I have to tell you. All right.
Right? It could be that one is … I’m not speaking specifically to obviously your kids [inaudible] maybe one’s artistic and the aunt is an artist and they can have that connection with each other. Also again, like I said, I’m not their mom, I’m not their friend. I’m the aunt, the perfect blend. Sometime the aunt is with whom they share the things they’re not yet sure they want to share with their parents.
I don’t mean necessarily the extreme of maybe they’re thinking about their sexual preferences or they’re thinking … We’re not talking about that or even the first time they’re going to have … whatever it is. They may not feel comfortable. The aunt is really the person to kind of bounce those ideas off of, right?
Julie:
Sure.
Melanie:
She’s a good test.
So parents should know that that’s how kids often feel about their aunt, and often enough what a happy role the aunt plays. So to make both aware that, just so you know, if you feel for whatever reason you can’t talk to your father or to myself, and they should always feel, I hope they do feel comfortable talking to you, but teenagers are teenagers, right? We all have to be honest. That your aunt, or either of your aunts, they want you to know that it’s an open door policy.
Julie:
That’s a great idea. That’s a great idea.
Melanie:
It’s 11:00 PM and maybe one day when your 13 year old is 17, and oops, maybe he had a beer he shouldn’t have had, and can’t get home, whatever it is, or you said in two years, he’ll be driving. Oops, there was a little bit of a bumper hit, right?
Both of them can create that relationship and it’s kind of like a free ticket to okay, here’s a safe person to talk to to help you navigate-
Julie:
Yeah, no. I was terrified of my parents and didn’t have any, to speak of, relationship with any of my aunts and uncles. But to have had that. To have had that person who also knew my mom really well and knew my dad really well, I think it’s … But I think it’s actually smart for the parents to tell the child, “If you don’t want to talk to me, you can call your aunt or uncle, but you have two aunts who want to be there for you.” But I think it’s smart to sort of give them that permission. I imagine my kids would feel, even in a couple years, I bet that they would feel like, “Oh, am I allowed?” But also to say to them, “She’s not going to run and call me on the other line immediately. She’ll talk to you.”
Melanie:
Exactly.
Julie:
So, I think that’s really critical. Before we-
Melanie:
And it should for you, because you want to know that the child has someone to go to who you trust-
Julie:
Exactly. Exactly.
Melanie:
I called the confidant. Again, to your point and I love that you said it, they may not run to you to say, “He asked me about condoms,” right?
Or whatever she did, or birth control, whatever it was. Obviously I’m going to the extremes of the issues. But at least you know they’re going to the safe person and of course on the other hand, I recommend the aunt and I always say this is part of the principles, right?
For Savvy Auntie. That if the child’s welfare, their wellbeing is in danger, then all bets are off. So it’s a two sided coin, right?
If she knows the child has been, god forbid, cutting herself or doing something to harm herself, that’s different.
Julie:
You know, my sister and I are politically very different. My sister is much more liberal. I would actually say she’s pretty liberal, period. We are politically very different. We have different views on certain issues and I trust that she may talk to my children about different views and that’s perfectly fine but she would never sort of say, “Well, your mother’s an idiot and you shouldn’t agree with …” My sister would always be 100% respectful for me. We have a pretty … We talk a lot. So I don’t shield them from other things that people do or decisions people make or lifestyles, but within reason. I’m not showing them X-rated movies or anything.
But I’m saying, I think that is really important, is that my sister is also extremely respectful of our beliefs and that we’ve chosen to raise our children in a certain way, in the Catholic religion, believing in certain things, and she would never try to undermine that, and she would want to be a safe place for them to talk about things. But I don’t ever feel that risk. I think that’s really important too. My sister is very respectful of that kind of thing, and that might not always be true. Look, there are tensions in families.
I talked about David Brooks saying these chosen families, and in some ways, that’s a benefit of a chosen family because you can pick people that think exactly like you or believe … We know there’s tensions in families, so I don’t want to suggest that when I was saying because I know my mom or my cousin or my sister would never say no to me, then that’s a better thing. There are an awful lot of nice things about sort of these kinship relationships or relying on friends because you can choose people that … Whoever it is, look, I think your children should have someone that they can go to and feel safe with, because again as you say, as they get older, there’s some really difficult issues that they might be tangling with and I think it’s important that they have someone, especially like you mentioned, if it’s something that could endanger their lives, I think it’s important that they have someone to talk to.
Melanie:
Relationship with my brother and sister-in-law, they’re more observant … They’re Jewish. They’re more orthodox than I am, but they know that I would never feed their child something that didn’t have the right label on it for their level of kosher observance. So we’re all adults and there’s trust, and that’s always important. Also, just as a final thing on this point, also god forbid something happens to the parents.
There should be a woman there. It happened with that poor girl, I’m forgetting her name, from Glee, the TV show.
Julie:
Oh my god.
Melanie:
Her sister and the nephew are very, very close, and in fact the sister moved in with [crosstalk] husband.
Julie:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Melanie:
Right? That, I call it the par-aunt, the aunt that becomes the parent, and thank god for that beautiful relationship, and the nephew asked for it. And that’s everything a mother could ask for.
Julie:
Exactly.
Melanie:
God forbid you’re not there; you want to know that there’s another maternal trusted figure in that child’s life, again whether by relation, your sister, sister-in-law, your best friend, whomever who can be there for them. That is what family is.
Julie:
It’s really beautiful and that story is so heartbreaking. But before we move on, I want to just ask you, or before we end this, I do want to ask you about National Aunties Day and the annual Savvy Auntie Coolest Toy Awards, if you can give us just a little idea of what that’s all about.
Melanie:
So, I established Aunties Day in 2009. It falls on the fourth Sunday in July, which also happens to be Parents Day. So whether or not the auntie is invited, or auntie has their own day, so the parents can have a day away from their kids, however you want to celebrate. It’s a day to celebrate and honor the other mothers in a child’s life and [inaudible] certainly no respect to mothers, I mean maternal-
Julie:
Of course.
Melanie:
… in the grander idea. And again an opportunity to acknowledge the role that these women play in the child’s life and in the parents’ life. I say that the aunt is a gift, it’s a gift certainly for the children because they can literally get gifts but also it’s a gift for the children. It’s a gift for the parent, whether because they do help at home, or because they are there as a trusted connection, or even just somebody to talk to when the child is driving you nuts, right? Not that any child would ever do that. And also a gift for the aunt herself, that she has these children in her life, again whether or not she’s child-free by choice, circumstance or challenge. So again, that’s the fourth Sunday in July. I say that auntie, there’s a gift, this day is yours, for the aunts.
Then the Savvy Auntie Coolest Toy Awards I also established in 2009, and it’s because an aunt of course wants to be the hero at the holiday seasons, but we’re not, most of us, I can’t speak for everyone really watching the Saturday morning cartoons, or the 4:00 PM after school Disney Junior channel shows, and we may not know what the kids are into these days. In fact, sometimes we just go nostalgia and buy them a Lite-Brite or a Barbie and here you go.
Which by the way, Barbie and Hot Wheels, there are a lot of nostalgic toys that are still hot. I am a toy industry expert. I go to a toy fair and other toy events and I do choose the toys that I think are the ones on the wishlists of children this year and not just the ones that they see because of the commercials that are running, which are often the ones that make their lists. This year is a little bit strange because they’re not in school mostly so they’re not seeing what other kids are playing with necessarily. But kids often have their hot list of what they want.
And I also look at gifts that maybe an aunt is more able to afford than a parent or grandparent, so maybe that ride on toy that’s $299 that is just the most amazing thing, and something really the aunt is the one likely to buy it and to give it for the holidays. So look out for those coming soon this week. I can’t wait to share it with everyone, and again, often enough, the aunt doesn’t want to ask mom and dad, what do the kids want? They want to surprise the kids. So this is my way of saying, here you go, here’s a list. Likely a sure bet for the kid in your life.
Julie:
This is fabulous and I am definitely going to be sending that list onto my sister, because I know she … We call her the gift master in the family. She’s always so thoughtful about things but she does ask for guidance, and I know she doesn’t want to but it helps. So I will definitely be sending that onto her. So I’m so glad you mentioned that, and please send it on to me by email or something, because I definitely want to promote that. So tell us-
Melanie:
Thank you.
Julie:
One last question. Tell us where people can find you, Twitter and Instagram, whatever, whatever your social media handles are.
Melanie:
All the socials are Savvy Auntie, and I’ll spell that out. S-A-V-V-Y, two Vs, auntie, A-U-N-T-I-E. You can pronounce it auntie or auntie. I myself was an auntie, but my New Jersey nephews, nieces just kept going back to auntie and so we went with that. So Savvy Auntie, on Twitter, on Facebook. There’s a Facebook page with over 100,000 savvy aunties, and also a Facebook group which is private and closed. So you have to request to join, but there are over 3000 amazing women there. There’s so much engagement. It’s a place that’s a little more private. Obviously it’s still the internet and I’m not guaranteeing privacy but it’s a private closed group where you can talk about the things that really concern you as an aunt and/or share photos and things that you don’t necessarily want or you likely don’t want public.
Then on Instagram and anywhere else, Savvy Auntie, although not Tik Tok. I just can’t.
Julie:
Good god. Good for you. Good for you. I like that. What a great way to end it. But I will tell you, Melanie, and I meant to tell you this in the beginning. My mother, or rather my grandmother, Beatrice, was one of 12 children and my grandfather, Leon, was one of 10. And I will tell you, my mother only had a brother and then I am just me and my sister. But we would go up to New England to visit my mom’s whole family, and of all those brothers and sisters of my grandmother, four aunts and one uncle never married. So they all lived, actually, in my grand [mamay 01:11:36], my great-grandmother’s house, and great-grandfather’s house their whole lives. They lived in the same house. They were born in that house and they died in that house.
And we would go and visit them. These four aunts were so good to us and they would always sneak us candy and they would go to the playground with us. It’s funny because they always had gray hair but they went gray like at 35, so they were actually … They always seemed older to me but they were actually young when I was little. They were very active and very wonderful. I have such a special … The last one just died about 10 years ago, and so they’ve always been … We always called them the aunts and Uncle Alex, my poor sweet uncle Alex living with these women, these very strong willed women. He was very quiet. He was very quiet.
I will tell you, I have always had such a special place in my heart for aunts in general, my wonderful aunts, my wonderful sister, and my wonderful sister-in-law who’ve all been very important to my children, and those older, my great-aunts were very important to me, and I have told my kids about the great-aunts as well. So I really appreciate you highlighting this very important demographic of women, talking about them, trying to debunk a lot of the myths and misconceptions out there about this group of women, and thank you for helping, I think moms like me sort of recognize and appreciate that group of women more.
Melanie:
I thank you very much for sharing that. I myself, my mom’s best friend, my Auntie Marilyn, my mom died when I was 19 and she stepped right in, and my Auntie Ethyl, who was my dad’s brother’s wife, who took me on, took me in her red Corvette and we’d see movies together. These relationships are magical. They really are. These aunts have a way of making a child feel so special. I am so grateful that you invited me onto your show, as I said at the top of the show, that often enough, parents kind of think, well what do they want to talk to us about, or what they could teach us about? What do they have to contribute?
This conversation, Julie, I wish I could have more of these conversations with more parents because when you open up your heart and your mind to those who love your children, and all the children in the family village, we become a stronger village, and we become a happier community. So this is really important. I am grateful to be on this podcast with you and I am grateful to your listeners for hanging on and listening to this. Again, I am available probably best place for conversations like this are on Twitter at Savvy Auntie, and I look forward to continuing the conversation with you, and with parents and of course with all the savvy aunties.
Julie:
Well, I would love to have you on again, and honestly, you are just a wonderful, joyful guest and thank you again so much for joining me. I learned a lot on this podcast and I do really look forward to having you on and continuing this conversation again.
Melanie:
That’s wonderful. Thank you, Julie, I’d love it. Thank you so much again for having me on.
Julie:
Thanks everyone for being here for another episode of The Bespoke Parenting Hour. If you enjoyed this episode or like the podcast in general, please leave a rating or a view on iTunes. This helps ensure that the podcast reaches as many listeners as possible. If you haven’t subscribed to The Bespoke Parenting Hour on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts, please do so, so you won’t miss an episode. Don’t forget to share this episode and let your friends know that they can get Bespoke episodes on their favorite podcast app. From all of us here at the Independent Women’s Forum, thanks for listening. (silence).