This week we have a special holiday episode with a very special guest–Patrick Turnbull. Patrick is a retired landscape contractor from Sunland, CA, and has worked independently as Santa Claus for the past 20 years. He’s joining us to talk about how a California law known as AB5 is making it very difficult for him to cheer up kids this holiday season. AB5 has forced millions of independent contractors like Patrick–who do not have or want traditional 9-5 jobs—out of work by forcing them to make an all-or-nothing choice about employment. This is why Santa may just give CA a lump of coal this year.
Transcript
Beverly:
And welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg. And today, we have a special holiday episode with a very special guest, Patrick Turnbull. Patrick is a retired landscape contractor from Sunland, California, and he’s worked independently as Santa Claus for the past 20 years.
He’s joining us to talk about how a California law is known as AB5, a law we’ve talked about here on She Thinks quite often, is making it very difficult for him to cheer up kids this holiday season. AB5 has forced millions of independent contractors like Patrick, who do not have or want traditional 9:00 to 5:00 jobs, forced them out of work by forcing them to make an all or nothing choice about employment. So this is why Santa Claus may actually give California a lump of coal this year. Patrick, a pleasure to have you on She Thinks.
Patrick:
Well, thank you very much for having me, Beverly. I have to tell you, I have this big knot in my stomach because I’ve never really done a podcast before, much not unlike the fact that when I walk right up to the front door of a house that an agent has sent me to and I do not know what’s on the other side of the door. But one thing I do before I get going is I, “Ho, ho, ho, Merry Christmas,” and the door opens and away we go. So glad to be here. I really am.
Beverly:
And away we go. I do want to let people know before I ask you the first question that you also did a video with IWF. So people can go to iwf.org and see Patrick featured in our Chasing Work video series. And this would be a tremendous help to him if you could share the video and get the message out. So go to iwf.org and check out Patrick in our Chasing Work video series. But Patrick, I just want to start with the big question, which is how did you get into the Santa Claus industry 20 years ago? How does one become Santa?
Patrick:
Well, believe it or not, I was big into country-western dancing. And one of my regular partners, one day she came up to me because I had been part of her holiday celebrations, she said, “My Santa Claus lost his wife and has left the state and I am left Santa less. And my boyfriend Al says you’d make a great Santa. Are you interested?” And this was like February and so I said, “Um, okay, I’ll just stop shaving.” And that was basically how I got started.
And so, she gave me a whole list of things to learn and memorize about all the children that were coming. So I did that. And come, Christmas Eve, jingle ling-a-ling, a dashing through the snow, jingle bells, and through the front door I go. And I sit on the couch and all these children come up. And they start talking about, gosh, their teachers, their dogs, all of the things that are happening in their life. And as the smoke’s coming out their ears, mommies and daddies sitting in front of us with tears coming out of their eyes, basically enjoyed the evening.
So, I gave out little gifts. All of the older children, she was very well choreographed, she really did a good job on it, they were my elves and they gave me all of the gifts, and then out the door, I went, ho, ho, ho.
And then another thing which was really funny for the very first year and who would have thought, her ex-husband happens to put together parties for the Playboy mansion. And so I had to audition for that. So from there, I jump in his car. We go up to the Playboy mansion. And here I am with Marston and Cooper on my laps in front of the entire area, jingle belling and playing in front of the Playboy mansion.
So, talk about getting smacked right upside the head with how interesting it can be to be Santa Claus. That is how I was introduced. And then every year after that, I would have an agent call me, and then two agents, and then three, then four, and I would get all of these different jobs, to the point where I would get up to about 25 jobs every year, little Santa gigs, anywhere from an hour to two to three. Gosh, I’ve been Santa Claus for symphonies. I’ve been corporate Santa Clauses. I’ve gone to parties where I’ve talked to older men. Gosh, I can remember one. It was like, “Tell me Santa, what’s so good? Tell me, do you have any good words for me?” And I’d say, “Well, of course, I do. When you get up in the morning and look in the mirror, be sure you like what you see.”
So, I would try to be the wise one also, as well as being the one who would give you permission to experience joy. Because I’ve only met one person in all these years who did not like Santa Claus, and so that says a lot about what kind of power Santa can have during the holidays in order to bring joy.
Beverly:
And I want to ask you, let me jump in here, I want to ask you about the seasonal type of work. So you even mentioned Mrs. Claus, you mentioned elves. You were talking about a job that you have during a specific time of the year.
Patrick:
Yes.
Beverly:
How many people work in the Santa Claus industry who expect to make, I guess, I’m assuming some of this work begins in November and goes through Christmas day.
Patrick:
Yes. Correct.
Beverly:
And does this make up a good chunk of people’s income who work in the seasonal industry?
Patrick:
For some, yes, I would think so. Now, if you were a professional clown, this might be something where you might end up doubling your income because of the parties that you would have to do. I’ve had elves who have basically been custodians and ushers at venues where I would go, and I’m in my chair and they have to make sure there’s crowd control. There are other elves that blow up the balloon toys for the kids. There are face painters. I mean, sometimes I actually have live reindeer. So there are people who are taking care of the reindeer, they show up. I’ve gone to parties that are catered. Well, just the caterer, he has to have waiters. He has to have a lot of different people that are there. So I would say yes, that the season is very much a moneymaker, just like it is for a lot of merchants.
Beverly:
And I know that COVID has changed a lot and I do want to ask you about that, but I want to start first with the law AB5, which is a law that maybe has good intentions behind it, or supposed good intentions, but it’s made it hard for independent contractors to work in the state of California. How specifically has this law impacted you in your work as Santa?
Patrick:
It has basically just put me in the chair that is not Santa’s. Now, I do have a choice, and that choice would be to go ahead and create my own business, which means that there is a whole process that you have to go through, an extra added expense. You have to buy tax permits. You’ve got to go down and register with the county. You have to go ahead and publish who you are in the newspaper over a given period of time. So you’ve got to buy the ad space. And it gets to be a little bit expensive.
And then you have to totally change your banking. No longer is it your personal account. You have to make a business account. Then you have to connect with all of your agents and they have to change all of their billing also, especially if it’s just direct billing, they’re not writing you checks.
So, it’s a whole process that you have to go through. And in the long run, it’s pretty much the same as if I was working for myself, except that with the tax permits and the local government is involved because I’ve had to register, there’s another percentage of my gross income that I have to give to local governments.
Now, it’s not that I’m against supporting local governments, but I’m a little guy. Why don’t you go after some of the larger corporations if you need more money? Architects and engineers and lawyers and healthcare people are exempt from this law right from the very first writing of it. So it is very unfair. It really, really is, but that’s what it is.
Beverly:
Yeah, but you’ve had to make this decision then of whether or not to start an official business or continue working as an independent contractor and adhering to the new regulations within this law. What decision have you made?
Patrick:
I am going to go ahead and make my business because I have a very savvy tax accountant. And he said that there are a few tax benefits if you go ahead and you do that, but it’s a whole process also. And so it’s another form that I have to make. It’s a little bit more money than I have to give to my accountant, but I am going to go ahead and make my own business if this law continues to stay in effect.
Now, there is one thing that happened. And one of the agencies that I work for, Santa for Hire, they’re literally worldwide. Like if I wanted to be Santa Claus in China, they could find me a gig. I mean, they’re very… And they are very nice. They have gotten me wonderful work in the past. And I have been able to perform to the point where the agent, Donna, she’ll call it back and she says, “Wow, what did you do? They’ve already booked you for next year.” So they’ve been really, really nice to me and they have been the most supportive agency. They started early on this year telling me what was necessary if they were going to hire me as far as what I would have to do to establish a business.
Now, there was a little sliver of light that showed up mid-summer and another assembly bill that was 2257, and it was passed and signed by Governor Newsom that kind of redefined the ABCs of AB5, which pretty much delineated what criteria were involved and trying to define whether or not you were exempt from the law, but most agents, they would have to hire you as an employee otherwise. So the best thing for me is an independent contractor. Now, I would have to become a sole proprietor, and even that is a little dicey because the sole proprietorship could be subject to some sort of scrutiny on the part of the law in order to see whether or not you were actually legit. So it’s a very slippery slope for me to slide my sleigh down, I have to mention.
Beverly:
Yeah, very much so. And it’s obviously making it difficult for you and your work and also for other people who are independent contractors. What would you say to legislators and other states? So California has led the way with AB5, but there’s the possibility we’re going to see it passed in other states as well. What would you say to those legislators making the decision whether or not to implement AB5 in their state? What should they hear from you on that on whether or not they should do it?
Patrick:
Santa Claus by nature actually is very apolitical, so asking me to tell the legislature what to do, it’s kind of like a pendulum that swings in both directions. But what I would probably tell most legislators would be that you’re looking in the wrong place and in the wrong direction for the kind of control that you are trying to extol as far as making sure that there is some sort of equanimity between an employer and an employee.
Now, that might sound a little obtuse, but basically, why would you want to take some money out of a cowboy’s pocket who happens to be hired because the rancher needs a little bit of help to bring in the cattle? Why would you want to go ahead and take money out of the pocket of a gardener who is trying to set up a lovely venue for a party that might be happening?
There’s a lot of things that I think could be done other than actually trying to control and limit who can do what. Because the need for independence is so incredibly important now, especially in this time and age because you’ve got COVID that you have to concern yourself with. How many independent drivers, which believe it or not, here in California, Proposition 22 pretty much covered their ability to go ahead and skirt AB5’s intentions, which I think was probably what initiated the entire thing in the first place, why would you want to go ahead and continue to tax people that really can’t afford it?
It’s kind of like, it’s not a poor man’s tax, but it’s certainly somebody who hasn’t got the political clout to go to the legislation and say, “Hey this is really unfair.” I think 2257 here in California, the only reason that a lot of musicians can do gig work now is that the union got together and went and spent a considerable amount of money in Sacramento in order to be able to make an exception to their trade also.
So, I would say don’t be so discriminatory. Don’t be so unfair in what you’re doing, but I understand that unionizing and that the incoming administration is very strong on that, but they’re also open-minded, from what I can tell, and people sitting down, they can hammer stuff out, hopefully, better than they are on the COVID relief, but they can hammer these issues out and basically make another, I would say another third class of employees. So you’ve got employees and employers, a standard 9:00 to 5:00 where you have all of your taxes taken out, and then you could have gig workers, completely independent contractors, those who get 1099s at the end of their performance at the end of the year and are responsible for their own taxes.
And then kind of a middle class where you are doing independent work, but you are getting a little bit of benefit from the people that you are working for. Some of the DoorDash type and Lyft type of employers are actually starting to extend benefits to those that are working for them in order to make it a little bit more comfortable and a little more desirable for them to work for them because they’re ridership tanked the moment COVID hit because I don’t believe any driver would want to end up being in a closed vehicle with somebody during a pandemic because the chances are just too strong.
Beverly:
Of course. And I think you hit on a good point, which is so much about work is, you do have those traditional 9:00 to 5:00 jobs, but there’s also other work. I actually fit into this category. I have a very flexible work schedule. A lot of people are in industries where it’s the flexibility that is the appealing thing, that isn’t going to fit my 9:00 to 5:00. And I would say definitely during COVID, the ability to adapt, to realize, okay, maybe Santa needs to be virtual this year to keep people safe.
Would you say that what governments often, even if there are good intentions behind this, ‘re often missing is that not everybody works a traditional 9:00 to 5:00 job and flexibility is important, that laws need to reflect the workforce of today, which is changing? It’s not a 9:00 to 5:00 job always where somebody stays in that job for 40 years and gets a pension.
Patrick:
That’s correct. But there needs to be somebody who’s willing to carry that moniker, somebody who is willing to ride their sleigh into Washington and park it and sit down with everybody and tell them the good and the bad of it all. Santa pays his elves, doesn’t he? Or does he?
Beverly:
Or does he? I don’t know. Does he?
Patrick:
Yes. Well, believe it or not, they do get great benefits, I have to say. I give them everything that they need in order to have a really kind of comfortable and happy life, which is what everybody wants in the long run. And so if they have the freedom to work and take care of grandma who’s suffering during the day because she happens to be 96 and needs care during the day, why should I have to hold down a 9:00 to 5:00 job during the day and pay somebody to take care of grandma when I can do it myself, go out at night and make enough money to where I can keep the roof over my head and the clothes on my back and grandma’s feet warm with fresh socks every day.
I mean, there are things that need to be done that don’t necessarily fit into the mold of a 9:00 to 5:00 job. There needs to be flexibility in the employee and the employment relationship because capitalism’s that’s way. It is. And I do believe, and I’m going to get just a tad bit political here, that capitalism is a teeter-totter. And the two people that are on that teeter-totter, one is employment and the other one is exploitation.
And AB5, that has a little bit of that second tint of victimization to it because of where it’s pointed and the number of people and the number of industries that are exempt from its effects. That kind of, to me, shows a little bit of political discrimination right off the top. It does. And so it makes one wonder and question what was the intent actually of this? Was it trying to reign in Uber, Lyft, DoorDash and Grubhub, and the like? Was that their true intention, or were they just looking for another way to make a little bit of money off of those people who are in dire straits as it is?
I mean, how many people are going to be out of a job at the end of the year? How many people are not going to be able to pay their rent at the end of the year because there’s no assistance anymore? Where’s that going to come from? So it is very oppressive in my opinion that something like this AB5 might even go national because everybody gets to suffer along with those poor independent contractors here in California who aren’t able to make enough money to pay the rent, put food on the table, or even, if necessary, have a break.
Because when I first started doing this, I had my own business. I paid my workers well. $15 an hour is where I started my laborers. I’m a very fair person. And people now are clamoring for something like $15 an hour. And I had money and my Santa money was my playtime money. Now, the Santa money that I make now, basically I’m having to throw into keeping alive along with my social security.
So, things have changed for me and it’s made it a little more dire for me, but I’m not complaining. I hate Hs in line. It’s just not fun. It doesn’t really accomplish anything. So, ho, ho, ho, and I think I’ll just stay positive on this and see what the future brings.
Beverly:
Stay positive, right. But it’s also so important that you’re sharing your story and you’re speaking up because I know it’s not just for you, but it’s for others out there. And so we appreciate you sharing your story and what it’s been like ever since AB5 has passed.
Beverly:
I do want to finish up with one final question for you, and that is a question about COVID. And we know that holidays are different this year. What would you say to the boys and girls out there who are missing their visit with Santa Claus this year and maybe are thinking that maybe Santa is not going to know what to get them, what do you say to those boys and girls?
Patrick:
Boys and girls know that Santa loves you and that he is very aware of what’s happening in your lives. Just because I can’t come and visit you in person does not mean that I am there in spirit. I am there in the knowledge that giving and believing is what makes my magic work. So do not stop believing in me even though I can’t come, for I am not there for you. I really, really am. And I will have all of my elves try their best, their darndest, to get to you that which you deserve.
So, continue to be good boys and girls. Continue to do what your mommy and daddy ask because they love you and they know what’s best for you. And they want you to grow up to be strong. They want you to grow up to be good. They want you to grow up and understand what community and harmony amongst other people are because it is so important as you grow older to be able to integrate with those around you.
So, boys and girls, I love you, know that, and I too will miss you. And if you see me in a mall behind a plexiglass wall, that does not mean that I wouldn’t much rather be able to touch you and hold you and hug you and show you just how much I really truly love you.
Beverly:
And just a reminder to our listeners, do go to iwf.org to check out the Chasing Work video on Patrick Turnbull, more of his story there. But for now, Santa, thank you so much for coming to She Thinks this week.
Patrick:
And Beverly, thank you ever so for having me. I have to say that it was much less stressful than I thought it would be as a human being, but Santa Claus, he knows because I have literally been put into positions where I have asked to do things that I would never, ever, ever think were part of my job description. And I’ve been able to make my way through, showing just exactly the power of Santa. And what he represents is just ever so important for everybody because your spirit and your soul do need to be massaged and touched at least once a year to show that life is worthwhile and that harmony is in the world.
Beverly:
Well, a very Merry Christmas to you. We so thank you for joining us today.
Patrick:
Thank you, Beverly, and likewise, the best to you. Merry Christmas.
Beverly:
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