Director of Economic Opportunity for the Stand Together Chamber of Commerce Erica Jedynak joins the podcast to talk about the American worker. With a new presidential administration and many states’ legislatures in session, we focus on the future of independent contracting, worker freedom, and whether new regulations will make it harder for all of us to pursue and find a choice in our work.
As a social entrepreneur, Erica leads a national strategy to remove barriers in government, business, communities, and education, so every person can rise. Prior to her work at Stand Together Erica served as the New Jersey State Director for Americans for Prosperity and was recognized as one of the New Jersey Globe’s Top 100 Most Powerful People and was voted “Top Young Female Talent on the Right” by Save Jersey readers. Finally, Erica has been published in The Wall Street Journal and Forbes and has appeared on Fox Business, NJ News 12, and Bold TV and She currently serves on the New Jersey State Advisory Committee for the U.S. Civil Rights Commission.
Transcript
Beverly:
And welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg. And on today’s episode, we focus on the American worker. With a new presidential administration and many states’ legislatures in session, what is the future for independent contracting and worker freedoms more broadly? Will new regulations and laws make it harder for all of us to pursue and find choice and work? Well, we have a great guest today to break it all down.
Erica Jedynak is the Director of Economic Opportunity for the Stand Together Chamber of Commerce. As a social entrepreneur, she leads national strategy to remove barriers in government, business, communities, and education so that every person can rise. Prior to her work at Stand Together, Erica served as the New Jersey State Director for Americans for Prosperity and was recognized as one of the New Jersey Globe’s Top 100 Most Powerful People, and was voted Top Young Female Talent on the Right by Save Jersey readers.
Erica has been published in The Wall Street Journal and Forbes and has appeared on Fox Business and Bold TV. Finally, she currently serves on the New Jersey State Advisory Committee for the U.S. Civil Rights Commission. Thank you so much for joining us, Erica.
Erica:
Beverly, thank you so much for having me.
Beverly:
I first just wanted to jump in and talk a little bit about the work that you are doing with Stand Together. Tell us about your focus on helping workers across the country. And if people want to learn more about what you all are doing, what is it that you’re doing to help workers?
Erica:
Yes. The Stand Together Chamber of Commerce and, more broadly, Stand Together Community, where we partner with Americans For Prosperity, is really working to elevate American’s voices right now on really key labor issues across the country. One of them that we’ve seen is the ability to work as an independent contractor, so not just a gig worker. But many people in America have side hustles. They freelance. I’m a former realtor myself, and there are a number of threats piling up, including California’s 85.
With Stand Together, we are working on not just advocacy, but also sharing stories of real workers and providing a platform for workers to tell their story about why independent contracting is so important and also more broadly on issues that are going before policymakers to make sure that their choices and wishes are heard.
Beverly:
And I know we often think about the federal government and a presidential administration and a congress, the decisions that they make with legislation and executive orders impacting people and a wide variety of areas, but where workers really need to be concerned as to what’s going on in the states. You mentioned what… We’ve talked about here right on She Thinks, IWF has focused on this quite a bit, and that is what’s known as AB5 in the State of California. Can you explain to us what this law is, and are we seeing other states replicate it?
Erica:
Yes. California essentially gutted the ability for independent contractors to do what they do, contract their services out. A lot of the public discourse was around Uber and Lyft that these drivers needed full-time benefits. However, the law encompassed many more people than just Uber and Lyft drivers. The law encompassed all freelancers and made it very difficult for independent contractors to keep their businesses and their work alive. And because of that, a million people were affected in some way in California.
Now, that happened early last year and we’ve seen other states, like my home state of New Jersey, try to move a bill through the senate president. It was actually stalled, but the State Department of Labor is still taking action against, workers. And then we’ve seen similar legislation pop-up currently in Virginia’s legislative session, out in Missouri.
It’s very concerning that there could be copycat legislation, but the good thing is that there is actually a lot of backlash in California, and tons of exemptions have now moved through the legislature because there was just so much backlash by workers.
Beverly:
What do you say to those who are proponents of AB5 in any type of legislation that is similar when they say that independent contractors are being taken advantage of by companies who are looking to avoid paying them benefits. And this is just a way to ensure that they get healthcare, that they get time off, that they’re treated like other employees. What do you say to those who think this is the answer for independent contractors, some of whom do want these full-time benefits?
Erica:
Yes. I would say we shouldn’t approach American workers as one size fits all policy from the government. A lot of folks are looking for flexibility outside of a nine to five. And I think we’ve seen that particularly in the pandemic where because of school schedules, volatile childcare schedules, working parents need flexibility. To apply a one size fits all standard on what workers should be doing, the hours that they set is far too constraining. And frankly, the future of work in America is moving away from a nine to five, particularly on the healthcare aspect.
There were a lot of products out on the marketplace now like Sidecar Health and others where folks can get benefits. And I think we want to move in the direction of having less burdensome regulation in healthcare so that more private-sector options can be out there.
Beverly:
I know. I purchased my healthcare on my own and I have been ever since I started my business in 2008, so that’s been a normal thing for me. But I think for individuals who let’s say have had a full-time job, the thought of getting healthcare outside of an employer may seem like a hard thing. Do you find… Like you were mentioning with COVID, there are more choices out there for people with healthcare. But are you concerned that with the Biden administration, the future of healthcare may not be as free and open to people to choose from?
Erica:
Yes. I think we should be very concerned that that could be the case, certainly any mandates. I would encourage policymakers and workers to really appreciate flexibility. Roughly 59 million Americans have some type of side hustle right now. And for some, independent contracting is full-time. For others, it’s part-time. But 59 million Americans enjoy the ability to be an independent contractor. For some, it’s a spouse who picks up the health insurance through their full-time employment. For others, they have other means, right? Or they’re mostly retired.
I think we want to not think about workers all in one cookie-cutter box. But certainly, with the Biden administration, we should be concerned about any unnecessary mandates that would get in the way of innovating healthcare too.
Beverly:
You mentioned COVID changing the way people view work. So many of us are working from home. Nine to five is not as common as it used to be. I’ve wondered, in addition to COVID, when it comes to younger people who are coming into the workforce, I don’t think they think of staying at a job long-term, staying at a job for maybe even more than two or three years. They definitely don’t think about pensions and staying at a job for 40 years and getting that. Do you think because of that, there is more of a tendency for young people to think about independent contracting?
Maybe even being an independent contractor as they’re going to school. Full-time student, but also need some money and need some help. Do you see that young people think about work a lot differently than older generations?
Erica:
Yes. I think the landscape is changing, right? Millennials are also looking for a collaborative work environment. More independence, right, as far as when they can work after hours. I think the workplace is changing. COVID perhaps just accelerated that with so many more folks working in different ways. I actually think that is all very much a positive, and the ability to be an independent contractor can take so many different forms.
I know the gig economy is often most talked about, and there’s certainly plenty of college students who do that on the side to make a bit of money. But plenty of entrepreneurs have startup businesses in that space, right? We can think about Etsy, or we can think about party planning. And then even with the pandemic, there are nurses who are doing vaccinations, who are contractors as well, and moving across state lines. I think there’s a lot of nuances here, and certainly, future generations and millennials are moving in this space towards more flexible work.
Beverly:
And are you finding that in the traditional workplace that these larger businesses and companies are having to think a little bit outside of the box because they are competing with the idea that maybe an employee would find being an independent contractor more appealing because of the flexibility, because of the ability to work from home, let’s say? Do you even find that in traditional businesses, they’re having to rethink their work models so that they can keep and retain the employees that they have?
Erica:
Yes. And I think that’s also the case for our millennials who are having kids right now and that flexibility. I was talking to a woman who’s a successful attorney at a firm, and she is actually a partner and an independent contractor. And the reason being, because she has more flexibility. She has certain family obligations, but she’s successful at her firm and they really value her there. So they were able to come to her being a contractor. I think for a lot of people, it can work that way.
And there are other benefits like independent contractors can pick up multiple clients. They get all of their work done in 20 hours a week. They can pick up other clients. And it’s important to recognize that during this pandemic and economic shutdowns, independent contractors, according to an Upwork study, were more likely to be in a better place because they were used to having multiple sources of income.
Beverly:
And something that I’ve found fascinating through this whole COVID experiment as far as the work experiment and people working from home is that I think a lot of traditional workplaces would have been fearful before for their employees to work from home, thinking that they wouldn’t be as productive if they weren’t in the office. I think we can point to, at least in my experience and talking to people, they’re more productive when they’re not having to schedule getting ready for work, commuting into work, going to all the meetings.
If they can just focus on work and stay home, they save so much time into their day that they’re actually more productive. Are we seeing any reports on that as well, that this work from home model is really benefiting not just employees, but it’s benefiting the employers because the quality of work is as high?
Erica:
Yes. I think we’ve seen some mixed results, right? I think particularly there are constraints on parents with homeschool. But to your point, there are just so many benefits, right? Cutting down commute times, gas costs, buying lunch out every day. And workers are able to really focus on how they can add the most value in the hours that they are working. There are fewer distractions to that point. We’ve seen just American productivity go actually up and increase, and there’s been a lot of positivity.
I know we hear about and we talk about the lack of social interaction because of quarantining and everything, but there’s certainly a silver lining that the future of work and what we thought about it is coming sooner.
Beverly:
And that’s why I think it’s so important that we protect the rights of independent contractors and not put these heavy regulations and burdens on them in the states. And before we continue the conversation, I want to remind our listeners about IWF’s Chasing Work series, where you can read stories and watch videos of people chasing work in spite of the obstacles. Some are succeeding, but some are struggling, but all of them deserve policies that give them a better chance. So go to iwf.org to see all that’s being done in Chasing Work.
And before you go, Erica, I wanted to talk a little bit outside the independent contractor realm and talk about unions. Joe Biden is our new president. President Biden has been vocal about labor union-friendly policies. He often says that he wants to create good-paying union jobs. What concerns do you see on the horizon for worker freedom as it pertains to unions and right to work laws?
Erica:
Yes. Beverly, the number one threat that is on the horizon is we expect the ProAct to be introduced into this congress very soon. It’s called the Protecting the Right to Organize Act. It sounds great, but it would do a number of very terrible things, including getting rid of the right to work across the entire country. So even though 27 states have passed Right to Work, which is in a simple way just allowing workers the choice whether or not to be in a union in the private sector. So that would get rid of that.
And the PRO Act would make California’s 85 law by the law of the entire land, so federal law. And there’s a number of other union giveaways in the PRO Act, but very concerned that that will be introduced very soon and start moving through the house.
Beverly:
And that’s quite astonishing when you think that it could supersede what so many states have worked on to fight for choice and rights to work in the laws that they have. Just to give us a little bit of background, what type of jobs would be impacted by this and the states that have fought so hard to fight against the unions and to promote Right to Work laws? Tell us why so many workers don’t want to be part of a union. What are some of those negatives to them?
Erica:
Yes. First off, it costs a lot of money. Dues cost money out of your paycheck, right, that you don’t get to see. And it really should be a choice whether or not to be part of a union. So for example, my home state here in New Jersey, New Jersey is not a Right to Work law. So if you work for a supermarket, you work for a number of different private companies. In a union, you are actually required to join the union as a condition of employment. And if you don’t, you can not be hired. And even if you’re in employment, you can be fired for not being part of the union.
So, it’s really a concern about a lack of freedom and choice in that regard, and it’s very concerning. But the 27 states that have passed Right to Work, that would all go away.
Beverly:
It’s really quite shocking, especially when so much groundwork has been laid to produce these Right to Work laws in these states. I know that you were on top of it and everyone at Stand Together is on top of it. Erica Jedynak, Director of Economic Opportunity for the Stand Together Chamber of Commerce, we appreciate you joining us today.
Erica:
Beverly, thank you so much for having me.
Beverly:
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