On this week’s Bespoke Parenting Hour, Julie Gunlock talks to IWF legal fellow Erin Hawley about her frightening experience dealing with protestors outside her home, how the police and her neighbors and community reacted, and why politics has become so uncivil in recent years.

Transcript

Julie:

Hey, everyone. I’m Julie Gunlock, your host for another episode of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to the program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families, themselves, and most importantly, their kids.

So, we’re going to pivot a little bit, I mean, it still has to do with parenting, but pivot a little bit to another topic. And that is how politics has been getting less civil, far less civil than it once was. I feel like things or people are more angry and that they are reacting to things much more emotionally. I think that is a dangerous trend and it certainly wasn’t this way when I was a child. It is dividing people in ways we’ve never seen before.

You have reports of family members not talking to each other and saying they will never talk to each other again. People are ending friendships. Even young people report that they wouldn’t ever consider dating someone who didn’t share their political beliefs. What a shame that is. I mean, you’d be missing out on a lot, if you have that strict of requirements about dating. And of course, there’s the issue of cancel culture. People are attacked these days and they’re losing their jobs. They’re being bullied online. And some people make just stupid mistakes, but the reaction, the canceling of people has really gotten to epidemic levels at this point.

But there’s also something much more sinister happening. It seems today, it’s more acceptable to harass people, not only online, but actually in their homes or at their homes. We’ve seen this happen with some regularity, Tucker Carlson, a number of activists showed up to his house and absolutely terrified his wife. Activists have shown up at Mitch McConnell’s house with bull horns and they’ve also done spray painting on his property.

Several Trump administration officials, of course, experienced this. Former DHS secretary Chad Wolf, who lives not so far from me, regularly had protestors in front of his house. And it was so bad that even a city council member in Alexandria, Virginia, that is the city where the acting secretary, former acting secretary lived, a city council member actually joined the protest. So it’s gotten to the point where even sitting city council members are joining in, which I think is a very dangerous thing to do. Kellyanne Conway also has experienced some harassment when she was working for the Trump administration. And you also saw, there was the case of Ted Cruz being harassed outside of a restaurant.

This is a very dangerous trend. And it’s clear that an important line has been crossed here. So here to talk to me about this and, sadly, her own experience with this happening is my colleague at IWF, Erin Hawley. Erin is a senior legal fellow at the Independent Women’s Law Center. She previously served as an associate professor of law at the University of Missouri, and she clerked for Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts. Hawley received her bachelor’s degree in animal science from Texas A&M University and her law degree from Yale. During law school, she served as a Coker Fellow and was on the Yale Law School and wrote for the Yale Law School Journal.

Today, we’re going to talk about an incident that you experienced at your own home. And I know this is kind of a tough subject, but I really appreciate you coming on.

Erin:

Absolutely. Well, thanks so much for having me, Julie, and it is important that your readers … And this is happening to so many of us around the country. It’s not just protests, but it’s, as you said, people being written off by former friends and being harassed on social media. And these sorts of comments and harassment, they’re just not civil discourse, so I’m glad you’re shining light on them.

Julie:

Thanks, Erin. So, let’s back up a little bit. Let’s talk about what happened to you at your home, but I think it’s also important to tell the listeners, you are married to Senator Josh Hawley and he is a Republican Senator. And tell us a little bit of background with that, because obviously, he was also a target of what happened to you and your family.

Erin:

So, yeah, absolutely. So my husband, Senator Josh Hawley, as Julie mentioned, he’s a Republican proudly representing the state of Missouri, and I think has done a great job of representing his constituents’ views on issues. And I’m very proud of him. And one of the things that you’re called to in public service is just to be able to take the heat. And I think that he has been someone who has stood up for what he believes in, regardless of what people might think or say. And for that, I am proud of him.

And speaking specifically about the event you referenced, Josh had actually taken our two boys, they are eight and six, and he had taken our two boys home to Missouri. We currently had a then seven-week-old daughter, and I didn’t want to fly with her or drive 17 hours with an infant. So Josh had taken the two boys home and I was here with Abigail.

And obviously, the election had happened and people were upset about different objections. The people, including my husband had raised … in particular, my husband had objected to the Pennsylvania election and Supreme Court ruling in that case. And so, there’d been some folks upset about that. And so, it was the evening of January 4th-

Julie:

And I just want to say, too, so were millions of Americans upset about the Pennsylvania ruling. Okay? So he wasn’t just out there with some random complaint. I mean, millions of Americans were upset about that, so including his own constituency. I mean, people forget that senators are there to represent their con- … I love how nobody remembers that. Right? That you’re actually supposed to be representing those who voted for you, or no, not those just two voted for you. You’re supposed to be representing the wishes of your state. So he was doing that and also, frankly, representing a lot of people like me who were concerned about that vote. So, okay. Yes. So, go on. So he raises these objections, yes. And so, people go bananas, because he had the audacity to represent the concerns of millions of America. So, go on. So what happens?

Erin:

So on January 4th, it’s a Monday evening, and Abigail and I were hanging out, that’s our daughter. We were actually having a really lovely evening. The boys were gone, so we were watching a Hallmark movie and Abigail was sleeping. I was holding her. It was perfect.

Julie:

That does sound great.

Erin:

Yeah. Our dog is asleep down there with us. It was a lovely evening. And then we were sitting there watching the movie and we heard angry voices. And at first, we were kind of confused. My dog actually was the most concerned. She got pretty upset initially. So we heard these angry voices, didn’t know what was going on. So I turned off the TV, I gathered up Abigail and we went upstairs. And that’s when we saw that we had protesters outside of our residential home. So there were about 20 protesters standing out. They had flashlights, they had placards and signs. They had at least three bullhorns and they were yelling.

So obviously, this is a residential neighborhood. It was evening, it was dark outside. So I just stepped out onto our front porch and I asked him to leave. I said that we obviously had a baby and that we also had neighbors we were concerned about. They refused to leave. And one woman yelled something about, if you really care for your baby, you should care about our country, and what’s your husband doing. And so, I went back inside, I went back downstairs. I tried to watch the show again, turned that off again, I couldn’t watch. And I just sat on the steps, holding Abby. I tried to call my husband and called a friend. And then, as I was doing that, I heard pounding and stomping. And went upstairs and there were three gentlemen, at least three gentlemen, I call them-

Julie:

Yeah, nice.

Erin:

Blocking our door.

Julie:

Wait, wait, wait, repeat that. Wait, because I interrupted. What were they doing at your door?

Erin:

So they were blocking the door. So we have just a normal porch. It’s a fairly small porch and a door that’s got glass on both sides of it. And they were, all three of them were standing in front of the door. And they rang the doorbell and were shouting, “Come out, come out.” And like one of those old westerns, where they shout, “Come out,” and then they drag him away and you never see him again.

So there was shouting this at the door. I had the baby and I was there by myself. I would’ve thought it would’ve been pretty obvious Josh wasn’t home, because I went out by myself. And then they refused to leave those. So that happened. I went back downstairs, and then thankfully, some friends showed up. And this is one of my favorite things about just the community that we live in is that one of our friends showed up in socked feet. They had rushed over so quickly that she didn’t even grab her shoes.

Julie:

I love it.

Erin:

She came over to help me with Abigail and just to provide moral support and to be there in case something had happened. And so, the friends came, which was really lovely. A neighbor had texted to say, “Do you want to come over here and wait it out until the police arrive?” But I would have had to walk through the protesters and wasn’t comfortable doing that with Abigail. So we ended up just hunkering down with friends and then waiting. The police did come. I think it took about 15 minutes, which seems like quite a while when you’re there by yourself with a baby, but they did ultimately come. They asked the protestors-

Julie:

Yeah. I do want to get into the police, because I think that is something that is also a remarkable part of this story. But before we do that, when these protestors were beating on your door, telling you to come out, I mean, let’s just for a moment, what did they want to do? Did they ever say, we wanted to hand you something, we wanted to have a conversation. I mean, of course, it’s absurd. Of course, it’s absurd, but I don’t understand.

So I have two questions. What was the point of it? What did they ultimately want to gain? Because it sounds like it was just to scare the heck out of you and to send a message, right? But was there anything that they wanted specifically to do, to hand you, to talk to you or Josh?

Erin:

So it’s my understanding that they put, or they did, they put a Constitution in our door handle, again, on our porch after I asked them to leave.

Julie:

Unbelievable.

Erin:

So they put that in our door handle. I would wager to bet that my husband knows the Constitution much better than they do. So they put that in our door handle, and then when they were yelling, come out, they referenced Josh. So I think they wanted him to come out and perhaps, I haven’t followed what they’ve said closely, but I think that they wanted to talk to him, they said.

But I have a problem with that. And the reason being is I think it would have been clear he wasn’t home, but even if they assumed he was home, they are coming at night to a family home where they know there are children.

Julie:

Yes.

Erin:

That is not okay. That’s why that’s illegal. It’s illegal in Northern Virginia to protest at a residential home. They should have been aware of that. And the reasons are obvious. It would be quite terrifying for my children, who I am so thankful did not experience that if they would have been home.

Julie:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me what’s happened since then. Well, first of all, before you do that, I just have another quick question. How did they, and if this is kind of touching in areas you don’t want to talk about, but how in the world did they get your address?

Erin:

That’s a good question. And I think that they can search property records and those sorts of things, but no, I’m not sure. And the sad thing about this is that they posted that video online. And so, our address is widely known, which is something you don’t really want when you have small children.

Julie:

Yes, it is absolutely horrifying. I mean, I worked in the Senate for eight years, actually the house and Senate, and I was actually a Senate scheduler. I will tell you, that was my hardest job I’ve ever had. Even harder than fast food or, really, jobs with important titles. Being a Senate scheduler was really tough. And I remember how important it was to keep that information private and really carefully guarding it. And I think when I talked in my intro about people being so emotional these days and really making serious decisions, not talking to family, or losing family members or losing friendships, it shows how emotional people are.

And so, this is, of course, scary for people who are public figures and wanting to have a secure home and not have it certainly on the internet. It’s absolutely horrifying and it’s so wrong. And I wish we would’ve seen more condemnation of this action, but we didn’t, right? I mean, certainly on the right, you had a lot of people supporting you and people outraged by this. What was the reaction on the left to what happened?

Erin:

That’s a really good question. And I finally wrote an op-ed about this and I didn’t really want to. It’s a hard topic. It’s a sensitive topic. It’s something that happened at my home and with my family. But the news coverage was really inaccurate. They quoted everything, calling my husband and our family snowflakes. They quoted a statement from a police spokesperson who was not at the protest, who basically said, not a big deal, nothing to see here. Nothing goes on in our community that is disruptive. And yet, he wasn’t here.

And the catch is that they posted, the protesters posted a 45-minute visual or a picture of what they call a visual, a video of this that they plastered all over the internet. And if you watch that, you can call our family snowflakes if you want, but I wager that if it was your wife or your seven-week-old daughter who was at home alone, you wouldn’t want that to happen at your house. And, again, I am thankful, beyond thankful that my two boys weren’t there, because it would have terrified them, as I think it would most any child.

In fact, just a couple of weeks ago, I’d written about this, but my oldest boy was going to bed. And he said, “Mom, I had a dream that a bad man came in the house.” And that’s not unusual for his age. That’s part of growing up, is having those sorts of fears. And so, I reassured him and I prayed for him, but the idea is that these are normal, natural fears that our children have. And it would be terrifying if something were to happen that made that reality.

Julie:

Yeah. I mean, that would have confirmed everything. These are normal fears children have, but then, if they had been home, it would have confirmed, look, bad men can come to our house, bang on the door, and say, “Come out.” Can you imagine, if you had had your six and eight year old home with you, and Josh wasn’t home, he was traveling, and they had seen you having to face that? That would have been terrifying for them, to see their mother and such. And also, to personally feel the fear of that is absolutely monstrous, what those people did. It really is.

But one thing that you said that I think is really, really nice, and I have to say I’m a little jealous, is that you talked about how your neighbors and your community, I think either in your op-ed on this. And can you just tell us where that was published?

Erin:

Sure. It was at foxnews.com.

Julie:

It was foxnews.com. And on this podcast, we can link to that article as well, because you wrote beautifully about the experience and why you think that these are lines that should not be crossed. You talked about it a little bit earlier, about there are reasons this is, taking a bull horn at night into a residential area is illegal. There are reasons for that. And aside from it being immoral, there are laws against that.

But I wanted to just really quickly touch on, you said that your neighbors were really … I think you said at some point, one of your neighbors doesn’t even agree with you politically, but he or she was very supportive in that moment and told them to go away. I think that’s really lovely. And I have to say, that touched me because I’ve had a lot of trouble in my neighborhood. I live in a deep, deep blue city. I live in Alexandria, and your close. We’re all sort of in Northern Virginia, but I haven’t had as much luck with my neighbors.

Years ago, just one example, we put a Romney sign in our yard. And Erin, at that time, my children were even younger. They were probably, I think, five, three. And then I had a very young one, a baby of a year old. And the things people would … We live on a slightly busy, it’s sort of an egress route, slightly busier street. And people would slow down, and Erin, the things they would scream at me in front of my children. And calling me a racist. Okay. And let’s just remember, this is Romney we’re talking about.

Erin:

Right, right.

Julie:

It’s not as though I put a Trump sign in my yard. I put a Romney sign in my yard and the abuse I took was astonishing. And honestly, it rattled me so much. And my husband kept saying, “Let’s take the sign out.” But then I was dug in. I was stubborn about it. But it really shocked me, and that’s why it’s so interesting to me when people say, “Oh, everything became so uncivil when Trump was elected.” I always say, “You know what? This has been building for a long time on the left.” The anger and hostility towards the right has been building for so long, and much longer than when Trump came in. And I don’t want to turn this into a conversation about that, but I think that this has been bubbling for a long time. And so, it’s sad to say I’m not surprised this happened to you, and as I had mentioned in my intro, others, other public officials. It’s really sad. Do you see this reversing? Do you see it getting worse? What’s your prediction?

Erin:

That’s a good question, and I really hope it reverses. Looking at the evidence, it may not, but just looking at the response from our neighborhood, I am hopeful. And as you said, I was overwhelmed. We have considered, do we need to move, [inaudible] saleable? What are we going to do? And we went to a safe place. We went home to Missouri after. I went to a safe place with the kids for a few days and then we all went home to Missouri, which was great.

And then when we came back, I was overwhelmed by the response. There was a neighbor across the street, had found someone who was vandalizing our house and reported it to the police. Our neighbors directly across the street came over to say they were sorry. A gentleman down the road, disagrees politically, but said, “We’re all Americans.” And just, there was this really outpouring of support, which was so encouraging to me, because these people know us as neighbors. They know us as people who have our kids playing in the yard and building this garden that is an eyesore. And they know our kiddos and they know us. And so, I was really pleased with that support.

Now, we did have people drive by and yell things and people spray paint things. And so, that occurred as well. But from our immediate neighbors, we were just so grateful for their support of us as a family, regardless of their political views.

Julie:

Well, I do wonder personally, I think at some point there’s a fatigue that will take over, a rage, fatigue. I feel like at some point, and I hope at some point, people get tired of being angry all the time. I mean, I work on that myself, because I’m in this deep blue city. I mean, there are a group of Moms Demand Action in this neighborhood who will target your kid. I went on Fox News defending the second amendment, so I’m this known entity. I am the enemy. And I’ve had those moms say, tell their kids, “Do not play with that little boy, because his mom went on…” So it is-

Erin:

That makes me so mad.

Julie:

It does.

Erin:

How are we supposed to have bipartisanship or civil discourse if that’s what our parents are [crosstalk]?

Julie:

Well, I tell you, Erin. It is funny, because I can take … Okay, let’s just say we don’t get invited to a lot of potlucks. Okay? Because we’re the Republicans or whatever, but I don’t care about that. I don’t mind that our neighbors are kind of standoffish and some people don’t want to associate with us because we’re conservative. Fine. But you mess with my kid and you leave my kid out of something because his mom went on Fox News? And let’s just say, that hurts. That hurts so much. And there’s no way to deal with that because you can’t force someone to be nice. You can’t force someone to be nice or be civil or be a human being.

Erin:

No. And that’s our primary callings as mom is to love and protect our children. And when people are using an illegitimate basis to be, I mean, you should never be mean to a child, but certainly not because of their parents’ political views. That’s crazy and harmful.

Julie:

It’s certainly now and I’ve experienced it with my own children, and it’s so painful and so awful. And it’s a different kind of pain, obviously. I think what you experienced was so terrifying, because obviously, you had your Abigail at home, your baby, and ultimately, you have to protect her as well. But, I mean, the idea of three large men. If you haven’t seen Erin, she’s very small too. There is this just image of little Erin and these three large men. It’s just so horrifying to me.

Erin:

But strong. I have a 17-pound baby. I lift all the time.

Julie:

That’s right. But I will tell you, I think there’s different kinds of ways that people can be cruel in this political space. And I honestly think that some of, even the people who haven’t been particularly nice to me, I think they’re very good people inside, but they just get so emotional about these issues and can’t really, I truly believe people can’t see straight. So, I know it’s two different kinds of harassment there, but I think a lot of people, particularly if you are living in a deep blue area, feel this kind of tension. It’s very uncomfortable. And I’m glad though that you have, it seems like you have supportive, very kind neighbors who seem to understand that that’s crossing a line. So I’m really glad that you had the support of your neighbors, Erin.

Erin:

Yeah, we’re so, so grateful. And I think that I also just wanted to mention social media, because if we’re talking about ways that people can be mean to one another-

Julie:

Oh, yeah.

Erin:

That seems to be the primary way. And I changed my phone number, I shut down my Instagram account. I thought Instagram was supposed to be the happy place.

Not so much. [inaudible] principles of civil discourse and, frankly, just human decency. It shouldn’t be okay to shout something at a mom who’s outside with their kids from a passing car. That’s not okay. And I think we need an awakening that that’s not okay, either on the right or on the left.

Julie:

Well, look, I agree with you, but I will say this, when you see this sort of behavior from somewhere on the right, there is almost non-stop criticism of such behavior from the right. What bothers me so much is that I don’t see a lot of that on the left. And and as we talked about, I didn’t see a lot of condemnation of what happened to you and Josh, or what happened to you, but also Josh. Josh has to be terribly worried now. This has to be, obviously, deeply concerning to him, but I didn’t see a lot of condemnation. Sure, there were a few, but I didn’t see widespread condemnation.

Erin:

No, no, you’re absolutely right. People just played it off as no big deal, and he was just overreacting. And that’s insane. That’s not accurate.

Julie:

Yeah. Yeah.

Erin:

So, no, you’re absolutely right.

Julie:

Yeah. And actually, it’s funny that you mentioned that he’s overreacting. That made me so mad, because he was out of town and it had to have been hard for him to … And I thought he handled it so maturely. I don’t know. Honestly, I think that it took a lot of strength of character to handle it the way, as commonly as he did. And so, I really admire both of you. And Erin, I am so sorry that this happened to you.

I think it’s really important to talk about these things. When you brought that op-ed, and you just said on this podcast, you said, “I didn’t really want to.” And I totally get that, because obviously, mine is not the same, but the harassment I feel I have received, I want to crawl under the covers. I don’t want to talk about this. It’s terrible. And so, but I think it is important to share and to explain why this is wrong, why this is going over a line, why this is dangerous. And so, I really appreciate you speaking out about it.

Erin:

Absolutely. Thanks for having me on, and thanks for all you do, Julie.

Julie:

Thanks everyone for being here for another episode of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. If you enjoyed this episode or like the podcast in general, please leave a rating or review on iTunes. This helps ensure that the podcast reaches as many listeners as possible. If you haven’t subscribed to the Bespoke Parenting Hour on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, please do so, so you won’t miss an episode. Don’t forget to share this episode and let your friends know that they can get Bespoke episodes on their favorite podcast app. From all of us here at the Independent Women’s Forum, thanks for listening.