Zainab Zeb Kahn joins the podcast this week to discuss Muslim Women’s Day. She explains why it’s important to not group Muslim women into one progressive category, but instead see them as a diverse group of women who’ve given much to society. She also discusses her fight against FGM (female genital mutilation) and shares the stories of the women she is helping. And finally, Zainab shares her own story and explains more about her work at the Muslim American Leadership Alliance.
Zainab Zeb Khan is Chair and Cofounder of the Muslim American Leadership Alliance. Born in the US to Pakistani-Afghan immigrants, she became an activist after eye-opening experiences counseling survivors of domestic violence and organizing exhibitions for artists facing repression. A former Senior Clinician holding a Master’s Degree in Clinical Psychology, Zainab also co-curated the International Museum of Women’s exhibition “Muslimah: Muslim Women’s Arts and Voices” and has served as a United Nations Delegate on the Commission on the Status of Women since 2013. Zainab has been published in the Oral History Review on Muslim American oral histories, and also serves as an Advisory Impact Board of Director for Picture Motion. She is also the recipient of the prestigious 2020 Silver Stevie Award for Women in Business, in the Non-Profit/Government sector.
Transcript
Beverly:
Welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg and on today’s episode, Zainab Zeb Kahn joins us to discuss Muslim Women’s Day and why it’s important to not group Muslim women into one progressive mold, but instead, see them as a diverse group of women who’ve given much to society. She’ll also discuss her fight against female genital mutilation, also known as FGM, and share the stories of the women she is helping. Finally, she’ll share her own story and discuss her work at the Muslim American Leadership Alliance. Before we bring her on, a little bit more about Zainab. Zainab Zeb Kahn is chair and co-founder of the Muslim American Leadership Alliance.
Born in the U.S. to Pakistani Afghan immigrants, she became an activist after eye-opening experiences, counseling survivors of domestic violence and organizing exhibitions for artists facing repression. A former senior clinician holding a master’s degree in clinical psychology, Zainab has served as a United Nations delegate on the commission of the status of women since 2013 and also serves as an Advisory Impact Board of Director for Picture Motion. Finally, she is the recipient of the prestigious 2020 Silver Stevie Award for Women in Business in the Non-profit Government Sector. Zainab, thank you so much for being here today.
Zainab:
Oh, thank you so much, Beverly, for having me, for including my voice, and for all the wonderful work that Independent Women’s Forum does. So I really appreciate being a part of this conversation.
Beverly:
Well, we’re so thankful for your time and for filling us in on the work that you’re doing. I thought we would just start before we get into some of the specifics of your work, get into your background and I gave a little bit of your bio explaining your parents and your work here, but can you help us think through this? How did you get to the work that you are today? What about your background led you to that?
Zainab:
Sure. No, that’s a wonderful question. I think that’s where it always begins. I’m a child of immigrants. I was born in a small, well, it’s not really small, suburb in Chicago called Schaumburg, Illinois. My father was from Afghanistan. My mother was Indo-Pakistani. They both immigrated. My father came around the late ’50s and my mother’s family came to the U.S. around the mid-’70s and settled in the Chicago land region. So for me, growing up, I grew up with an American identity, obviously, but also as a Muslim. So navigating the world with a name like Zainab, I have seen ups and downs of things and I also realized how important it is for me to value my Muslim heritage, but at the same time, celebrate being American. Growing up, the 4th of July was the biggest holiday that my father observed over any other holidays, so I think for people that come from closed societies, the values of America, democracy, freedom, what it really means, of course, have changed over time, but for us, it was instilled that we don’t take freedom for granted.
Beverly:
I think something you said there is really key and it’s still celebrating your culture and your heritage while seeing yourself as an American, which you are. I think we have, in society, almost a desire to only focus on what makes us different. Do you think that we should have a greater focus on what makes us the same and our American background and what being an American means?
Zainab:
Oh, absolutely. That’s an excellent question, Beverly. Honestly, I think America is one of the best countries to be a Muslim, even better than in the Middle East because you still have so much segregation and discrimination, prejudices, even amongst within the Muslim groups. Here in America, you can have fluid dual identities and the core thing is that we’re Americans. I think that’s what we tend to overlook, especially when it comes to minority groups because we want to, or the media wants to label us as just a particular minority group and that’s it, where really, we’re Americans first.
Beverly:
One of those aspects where I think you’re put into that monolithic group is purely based on religion, just thinking that religion is the only defining aspect of who you are and people who are Muslim. You talk a lot about the melting pot aspect of Muslims, can you just expand on that for us, when you talk about Muslims being much more than that, and I think on the surface we can all agree-
Zainab:
Absolutely.
Beverly:
… but what does that mean for you?
Zainab:
That’s so important that you bring this up because here’s the thing, Muslim-Americans are the largest demographic in the United States and this is meaning racial, economic, socioeconomic status, whether they’re first-generation, the fourth generation, how they identify politically, their status, their post-secondary education status is one of the highest. So, the demographics are, by far, the largest variant in the U.S.; however, we tend to be clumped into one monolithic identity. I think sharing the stories is really important for Muslim-Americans because this is where MALA has come into place is that we’ve been the first organization to nationally archive these oral histories into the National Library of Congress so 20, 30, 40 years down the line, you can look back and say, “Okay, what was it like for Syrian-Americans and for Afghan-Americans? What was it like for this particular group or this group?”
You’ll see that there’s a variation of personal experiences and unfortunately, what the media captures is one narrative, which is victimhood, which is oppression, which is about failures and challenges that immigrants or minorities face rather than the opportunities and the advancement and the actual incredible work that we do as part of Americans, as part of this community.
Beverly:
So, with your group, you MALA, Muslim American Leadership Alliance, you share a lot of their stories. What would you say, even for Muslim women coming from a variety of countries to America, some born, some immigrating, what would be a common thread of their success that they have and a common thread that they may have when it comes to opportunities leading to a better life?
Zainab:
Absolutely. May I say, it’s just such a wonderful question to0? Listen, I am very well connected with some of the most powerful, impactful Muslim women in American society, minority women that are physicians. The Iranian community, for example, is one of the most thriving and highly educated, and economically advanced in our nation. That’s because they’re coming here with the concept of knowing that they can have opportunities and resources to succeed not based on the gender that they are born. I think it’s very important that we discuss not the challenges that Muslim women face.
It’s beyond the hijab controversy at this point; this is about recognizing and looking at why our community has done, what we’re able to do, whether you’re Orthodox, whether you’re secular Muslim, the beauty is that in America, we’re a pluralistic society and we all have the equal opportunity to advance and thrive and succeed. Granted, there are going to be certain challenges that all of us may face because of our given backgrounds; however, here in the United States, we do get to overcome that and we do get access to opportunities and resources that weren’t there before.
Beverly:
You mentioned something earlier that I wanted to expand upon, and that was just saying that your name, Zainab, I even had to ask you how to pronounce it as we jumped in this conversation, because I wanted to make sure I did it correctly. What has it been like to have a name where people identify it as being from another country? So how was that for you growing up in school? What kind of challenges have you faced? Do you see it almost as a positive that you have a name that’s unique, that stands out in a good way, and what has that been like for you?
Zainab:
It’s great. There are even times even within the Muslim, it’s a very common name and it’s also pronounced differently in certain regions. So, in Turkey, when I go there, it’s Zainab; the Arabic way is Zainab; the Persian way is Zainab. In Pakistani-Indo culture Zainab. So, there are different ways to pronounce it; but however, for me, it’s a part of my identity. It is who I am. I’ve had my name, been made fun of by kids, school-aged kids, but the interesting thing is that I’m a mother. I have a three-year-old toddler and I named him Jehan, which is a Persian name. It was my father’s name. It means ‘the universe.’ It’s also a Turkish name, so that’s something that I want to continue doing is just keeping my heritage with pride, looking at it with pride, that I’m able to be an American navigating around with a name like Zainab and that’s totally fine. I don’t have to switch it around. I don’t have to be anybody else. I can be Zainab Kahn and still be successful and amazing at what I do without changing my name. I’m very grateful for that.
Beverly:
We wanted to bring you on too, to talk a little bit about Muslim Women’s Day. This is a day that has not been around for very long. I believe it was 2017 when it was first declared that there would be a Muslim Women’s Day. Why is this stay important and what aspect of it do you think that it brings to the forefront? Why do we focus on this day?
Zainab:
Well, I did have to do some research on that. It’s like a self-proclaimed day by a blogger. It’s not really nationally- recognized or observed on a national level. That’s something MALA has actually been working on is looking at Muslim-American heritage as an observance so that we can spotlight the contribution of Americans of Muslim heritage through the United States, from its founding through the present. Now, I think it’s very important for Muslim women to have a day, that’s great; Jewish women, if they have a day that’s wonderful; Christian woman also, but I’m a little curious about what the significance is. Is it to talk about the successes or is it to talk about the challenges? Is it just talk about the opportunities that Muslim women have had coming from different societies?
I’m not really particularly familiar with that, but I do have to say that I think as Muslim women, we definitely have to show that there’s unity amongst us, but that there are also differences. That’s one of the things that I think is very important, not all Muslim women wear a hijab or are Orthodox or are secular. We come in a variety of different ways on how we believe. I think even politically, when we look at elected officials, there are many Muslim women that have been elected into Congress, into national or local levels, which is wonderful, but we still need diversity in thought. We need to include Muslim women who may be center rights. We have to include Muslim women that are Republicans. This is very important because if we’re going to say that we are not a monolith, we have to show unity in showing that there’s a difference in thought amongst us as well.
Beverly:
Absolutely, and I want to focus just on the political angle that you mentioned right there because I know that you have been working, speaking out on FGM, which is female genital mutilation. I know that there have been states that have been looking at legislation, even the federal government. What has been your work and your involvement within this?
Zainab:
Oh, that’s a wonderful question. This goes back to my therapy days, so prior to launching MALA, I was working in private practice and group practice where I was getting a lot of clients that were from Muslim-majority countries. At that time, it was, I think, because of my name, the familiarity of my name that would bring a lot of these female clients to me, and then that’s when I learned about FGM, female genital mutilation. I realized that this is not domestic violence. This is not just post-traumatic stress disorder. This is a major, major issue that was happening within the community and it was very taboo to talk about even seven, eight, nine years ago. So fast forward, then, I think we’ve come a long way in being able to talk about this issue, but we still have a lot of responsibility within the community to discuss it. In 2017 alone,
I believe MALA had three or four separate incidences, all separate, where people were calling because they were either at risk or had wanted to report a young girl or a woman at risk of getting FGM done here in the United States. So, we’ve been very involved in not just sharing the stories of survivors, but creating advocacy around it. We’ve been a part of the End FGM Network. We have a wonderful relationship with survivors and being able to plug them into panels and plug them in into projects, I recently came across one MALA fellow survivor who’s now starting her own non-profit, so on FGM in America. So it’s a wonderful way for us to start bringing awareness to the table, but we’re still at over 200,000 women and girls just here in the United States alone at risk of undergoing FGM.
Beverly:
I think that number is so surprising to people. I think even the topic of FGM, it’s surprising to people that this takes place in the United States. What is your perspective on what state legislations should do? Do you think there should be state laws that completely ban this? I know states have worked on that.
Zainab:
Absolutely. I think that case in Michigan with the Bohra community, was just shocking. I think for human rights organizations, women’s rights organizations where the physicians, not just people, there were physicians, they took a Hippocratic Oath, practicing medicine in the United States. They performed this. Now, if you’re following the case, they were accused of performing this in their home to hundreds of girls, hundreds of young girls that were coming through those doors and had this horrific, horrific atrocity done to them. So yeah, I absolutely believe that there should be changes on both a state and federal level on female genital mutilation.
Regardless of where you are, this should not even be a political issue. This should be hands down, this is one of the worst violations they could ever do against a human and I just think it’s almost nonsensical to debate. It should be outlawed. It should be banned. It should be criminalized. It’s criminalized quote-unquote by the UN, but still, it happens. We have to actually put the law into action and if we’re allowing the perpetrators to go, to be let free here in the U.S., what kind of an example are we giving?
Beverly:
Absolutely, and I think it should be a non-political issue. People on all sides of the aisle should agree that this practice should be criminalized. I wanted to just ask you about the women that you’ve worked with who have been brave and have spoken up, this has happened to them, and want to use their own story to bring awareness to this issue. How do many of them overcome what’s happened to them and still live productive lives, or is that a hard thing for women to do who’ve been victimized in this way?
Zainab:
Well, I would always tell my patients and my clients, “You are not defined by what happened to you.” To be honest, Beverly, even in the capacity of where I’m an executive director for MALA and a board member for other organizations, I’ve worked with survivors one-on-one where it’s taken them years to come forward to share their story because we have to be very cognizant of post-traumatic stress, the anxiety, the flashbacks, which are psychological. The psychological damage, there’s no time limit on that. It’s just you learn different ways to cope and you get stronger by creating a network of support by sharing your story, and finding and creating a purpose around what happened to you.
I think that’s something that a lot of women survivors I have worked with have used that as a tool to use their voice as a platform to initiate change so that it doesn’t happen to the next generation of women and girls, but it’s a process. It’s not something that you wake up to overnight and all of a sudden you’re ready to share your story. Many times, I’ve also seen, I don’t want to name any organizations or groups, but even in the media when they talked about FGM, they just used the person’s story, and then it’s like, “Okay, done. Bye.” Then it’s like they feel left in the dark and they’re like, “Well, I just opened up something that took me five years, six years, seven years, 10 years of therapy to talk about, what am I going to do next?” So I’ve come across that quite a bit when it comes to survivors as well.
Beverly:
I think that’s why it’s amazing the work that you’re doing and working with them and bringing those stories to the table and helping them even beyond that. My final question to you ties together some of the things that you talked about throughout this podcast today, which is victimhood. It seems that you’re very passionate either with working with your patients or the way that you just view this as a whole that people seeing themselves as victims doesn’t help them in the long run. Is that the case and is that something that you do work within the clients that you do counsel and help them process horrible atrocities that they’ve gone through?
Zainab:
It’s very disempowering. I will say that even personally, I’ve been asked to be interviewed once by CNN and it was like a constant barrage of, “Okay, well, what do you think about the Trump Administration doing XYZ?” And I’m like, “But this is about me, isn’t it? This is about me as an empowered Muslim woman. Why are you bringing in your political agenda on this issue? Why do you keep victimizing me? Why do you keep putting me in a box? That’s something I’ve really fought tooth and nail quite a bit and I think that’s yes, we all have challenges yet, at the same time on when we just go off of this victimhood narrative is just so disempowering. It’s so negative and it just does not show the real power of leadership and incredible philanthropy and amazing triumphs that people have overcome in our community. So that’s why I am against the victimhood narrative because I, myself, don’t see myself as a victim.
Beverly:
We don’t see you as a victim either. We appreciate your voice. We appreciate you coming on today and I want to let people know once again, the name of the organization as Muslim American Leadership Alliance. Go check it out. You could Google it and find it online, but we do appreciate you joining us today, Zainab Zeb Kahn. Thank you for being here.
Zainab:
Thank you so much for having me.
Beverly:
Thank you for joining us. Before you go, Independent Women’s Forum does want you to know that we rely on the generosity of supporters like you, and investment in IWF fuels our efforts to enhance freedom, opportunity, and wellbeing for all Americans. Please consider making a small donation to IWF by visiting iwf.org\donate, that is iwf.org\donate. Last, if you enjoyed this episode of She Thinks, do leave us a rating or a review on iTunes. It does help. Also, we’d love it if you shared this episode and let your friends know where they can find more She Thinks episodes. From all of us here at Independent Women’s Forum, thanks for listening.