On this episode of the Bespoke Parenting Hour, host Julie Gunlock speaks to Parents Defending Education President Nicki Neily about politics in the classroom. All across the country, parents are reporting concerning cases of activist teachers using their classroom to push radical leftist ideology on children as young as Kindergarten age. Why is this? What can be done? How can parents fight back? Nicki talks about her new organization—Parents Defending Education, it’s mission, and it’s plans to help parents do what must be done to reverse this corrosive trend in education. Tune in!
TRANSCRIPT
Julie Gunlock:
Hey everyone. I’m Julie Gunlock your host for another episode of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to the program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families themselves and most importantly, their kids. Last week was a busy week in the education space. I feel like we talk a lot about education on this podcast, but that really seems to be a critical issue to parents today. Last week, the department of education issued new regulations stating that every school in America needs to incorporate anti-racist practices into teaching and learning, and that funding and grants will be tied to these efforts, so school administrators will certainly have an incentive to institute these policies.
Some may think what’s wrong with anti-racist programs in teaching. It’s good to teach kids not to be racist. It’s good to see the world as colorblind. It’s good to treat all people equally. Yes, that’s true. That is good. But that is not what’s being pushed with anti-racism. In fact, anti-racism is the opposite of not being racist. I know. Try to follow me here. It is the opposite of colorblindness. It is absolutely the denial of equality in favor of the preferred term today, which is equity. We’ll get into that later on in our podcast.
I know this may seem confusing and that’s because it is confusing. But in the last decade, something has happened. Something very interesting has happened kind of concerning both public and private schools have become immersed in identity politics. Many teachers and school administrators see themselves, not as educators, but as activists eager to pull aside education, throw out traditional curriculums in favor of radical leftist curriculums that teach kids to hate their country and instruct kids to treat each other, not as individuals, but as members of an identity group who assign value based on immutable qualities, like the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, their gender identity. Parents are increasingly worried about this dynamic, but many don’t know what to do or are too afraid to speak up. I felt that myself.
Now, if you’re on Twitter or you’re following these issues, you might have seen a letter from a teacher named Paul Rossi, who taught at an elite private school in New York City, one of the most elite private schools and a very expensive school. He wrote an open letter where basically said that he refused to teach anti-racist curriculum in his classroom because he said it is political indoctrination and it certainly is. I don’t know his exact status, but he is no longer teaching at that school.
Additionally, I urge everyone to read another letter, this one by a parent named Andrew Gutmann. He sent his daughter to another very elite private school in New York. Gutmann wrote with astonishing frankness about the school’s almost obsessive, I wouldn’t even say almost, it is obsessive focus on race issues. He posted the calendar from this school called Brearley where every single day the kids had to attend another function telling them that they were racist or telling them that they live in a terribly racist, awful country. Gutmann ended up pulling his daughter out of the school and not surprisingly, he has received vicious treatment on social media for having the nerve to complain.
There’s also been some great writing on this topic by Caitlin Flanagan, Barry Weiss, and IWFs own fellow, Naomi Schaefer Riley. Naomi’s own mixed race children experienced some of this indoctrination at their own exclusive private school, which they no longer attend. Naomi and I actually discussed this on an earlier episode of Bespoke, so check that out. These individuals, Rossi and Gutmann and even Naomi, they are extremely rare. Parents and teachers mostly stay quiet about their concerns because they fear that if they speak out, their child might face repercussions.
It’s a big subject and it’s complicated. Here to explain it a bit better is Nicki Neily, a good friend of mine and a brilliant thinker who has one of those rare talents of taking a very complex issue and figuring out a way to explain it so that it makes sense. Nicki Neily is the president and founder of parents defending education, a nonpartisan nonprofit national organization, giving parents the resources and support they so desperately need to advocate for their children’s education. Prior to launching parents defending education, Nicki created Speech First, a nationwide membership organization that defends college students’ free speech rights through litigation and other means. Speech First has filed federal lawsuits against a number of big name universities for violating student’s speech rights. They have secured major victories at the appellate level and have forced policy changes, not only at the schools in question, but at dozens of other schools across the country who likely want to avoid Nicki Neily and her and more lawsuits.
Nicki was also the president of the Franklin Center and at one point had very difficult job of being my boss at the Independent Women’s Forum. Nicki grew up passionate about civil liberties thanks mainly to her family history. Her grandparents, both Japanese American citizens were born in California and met in a Japanese internment camp during World War II. Thanks so much, Nicki, for coming on.
Nicole Neily:
Thank you for having me.
Julie Gunlock:
Obviously in the introduction I mentioned how CRT, critical race theory anti-racism curriculums are sort of taking over, not just public schools, for private schools. That alone tells you why your new organization was so needed, but tell us why you set it up and why you think it is so needed out there today.
Nicole Neily:
Sure. I mean, I think 2020 was kind of a perfect storm for a lot of people. My husband used to work doing school choice litigation and I remember when everything shut down in March, we had a lot of friends reached out to us and they said, “We don’t want the schools to be closed, but it feels like the schools don’t care what we want.” And we would just laugh and laugh and be like, “Oh no, they don’t.” That was one element of it and then also suddenly classrooms are in people’s living rooms. I think parents suddenly had this window into what their students have been learning for many years and they were horrified. “Your social studies prompt is what? You have to write an essay about what?” I think that really freaked a lot of people out.
Again, it really drove home the fact that families are deeply disenfranchised. Schools are not there to be responsive to families’ concerns or needs. Actually kind of the thing that sort of put me over the top was, I’m from Chicago originally and there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about a city where I grew up. After all the George Floyd riots, the superintendent of a school district called Evanston where Northwestern is based, said that he was going to allow black and brown children back before white children in the name of anti-racism. I was furious and I thought ‘are you serious?’ and I thought [inaudible 00:07:58] ranting to my husband said, “This was unconstitutional.” He said, “I think a lot of people don’t realize this is unconstitutional.”
My initial thought was, well, I want to create Speech First for K to 12 and just do a bunch of these schools. In talking to people over a period of several months, it occurred to me that it’s one thing to sue the schools, but I think we need to actually start at a much more basic level. I think a lot of people have been very uncomfortable with what they’ve been seeing and hearing in the news and in their children’s schools, but people actually don’t know where the red lines are. They don’t know that if you go to a public school and your child is forced to confess their privilege or say things that they don’t want, that’s compelled speech. That’s a First Amendment violation. Or if your children are separated by race or by gender and they’re treated differently, the little boys are told that they’re part of the cisheteropatriarchy, or the white kids are told they have white privilege. That could be a Title IX or a Title VI violation. People don’t know that.
We’ve also seen a lot of families over the past year pull their kids out of public schools and put them into private schools because obviously the private schools are the ones that are open. But when you go into a private school, you actually don’t have a lot of those rights. I thought, well, let’s start there. Let’s tell people where the lines are so when the lines are crossed, they’ll know what to do. Then we kind of built out from there. Now suddenly we have all these different programs and all these different things we’re doing, but I think a lot of it just starts from the idea that we need to empower parents again to get involved in the children’s education.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes. That’s critical. It’s interesting to me too how many people hear it’s anti-racist education or it’s critical race theory. First of all, I don’t think the vast majority of people know what critical race theory is. But they have heard… I feel like anti-racism and Kennedy’s book and DeAngelo’s book have become much more a part of popular culture. Yet people will read these books and they all think, well, what’s wrong. I said in my intro, what’s wrong with teaching anti-racism, what’s wrong with equity? I mean, I think one thing that would be helpful is what is the difference between equity and equality? Because that is a term, you never hear equality anymore, you hear equity. Tell us why that’s sort of, if I’m going to have a dictionary of words that I think these are sort of triggering words, right, what does equity mean in this context?
Nicole Neily:
No, it’s a great question and that’s actually… We have a whole guide on our website, understanding woke jargon, because there is honestly a little bit of the bait-and-switch. Because people think, well, equity means equality and-
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Nicole Neily:
… so who is opposed to culturally responsive education. All these things sound very benign, but they’re really not. I mean, I think a lot of us understand equity as fairness or justice, but now it means equality of outcomes. Frankly anybody who knows two siblings, has two children, know that even if you have all of the same inputs, it is impossible to guarantee equality of outcomes, period. That’s when we start to see schools, we start to see districts, governments trying to gain the system to try and make sure everybody has equal outcomes. I mean, I think about that short stories from Kurt Vonnegut, Harrison Bergeron, where attractive people had to wear masks and athletic people had to wear weights. That’s essentially what we’re doing in schools.
I mean, we now see this trend of schools trying to get rid of gifted and talented programs because there’s a perception that some kids are disproportionately represented in those programs. Well, maybe a better system would be, let’s make those other programs really good so that we don’t need to segment kids. But that’s a really hard thing to ask. It’s a lot easier to say, “We’re just going to chop off these people at the knees and not let them get ahead.” Frankly, that makes society worse off.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, and it’s lowering… What we’re seeing, especially in Virginia, Nicki and I, for those listening, both live in Virginia. I pulled two of my children out of the public school. The third will come out, he’s finishing his elementary years and he will soon also go to a private school. But in Virginia it is really astonishing the speed with which they are implementing some of the CRT stuff, some of this sort of anti-racism all under the guise of equity. For instance, Virginia, just this week announced that they will not be allowing any more advanced diplomas. I’m actually not totally familiar with the concept of advanced diplomas, but my quick read of it is that kids could sort of specialize or could do advanced work and that would be indicated on their high school diploma that they have some advanced work, and that is going to be done away with.
Virginia is also going to do away with advanced mathematics starting in middle school. I haven’t read yet if they’re going to get rid of the TAG program. But there’s some other things that Thomas Jefferson High School… I know, Asra, who works with you at Parents Defending Education, has done tremendous work on what they’re doing at Thomas Jefferson High School. For those who are not familiar with this high school, it is the best high school in the United States and actually, it is a public school. But you have to test, you have to take a test to get in, so it’s merit based. If you test well, you’re allowed into this high school. It’s an amazing high school. It’s a sort of math and science high school, and now they’re doing away with that. Now it’s going to turn into just any other high school, not a merit based high school.
These are the kinds of policies, again, we’re just starting to see them now. Nicki, I really think this… Thank God for your organization, but I think parents are going to get a very quick education when they realize… they may have been ignoring this, but then when they realized that TAG math is going away and TAG of course stands for talented and gifted and there’s no advanced mathematics in middle school, actually not until, I think, 10th or 11th grade. Can you get advanced mathematics? I mean, that’s going to put a lot of kids seeking scholarships and seeking certain positions at elite universities, that’s really going to put them at a disadvantage. I can see it already. It’s not a theory anymore. It is now policy and we’re going to see outrage from people, I mean, who may have agreed, right, with this sort of anti-racist message. Suddenly it’s going to hit them where it matters, which is with their kids.
Nicole Neily:
Right. I have not heard TAG. I have heard GNT for gifted and talented-
Julie Gunlock:
Yes.
Nicole Neily:
… which I also think is gin and tonic. But no, I think, what I think is really perverse about this whole thing is when schools starts to talk about… I mean in Oregon, we saw them rollout their math is racist idea, which is absolutely bonkers, a project funded by the Gates Foundation, which was something that the Washington Free Beacon uncovered. I mean, you think about some of the people, some of the advocates who are pushing this on districts, I’m sure they are still teaching their children math, right? The things that we are told that are shameful white culture, right, being on time, being polite, you are still teaching your children that. What you are doing by denying other children those programs, those opportunities is you are sandbagging the competition and I think that is sick and twisted. It’s time to call those people out for what they are doing.
Julie Gunlock:
Absolutely. Also Nicki, you see that in the… and I know we’re not talking about the closed school issue here, but I mean, you have the chair of the Alexandria City school board sends her kids to private school. Oh, the Alexandria superintendent sends his child to private school. These people are not going to be subject to these policies that they are working so hard to pass.
Nicole Neily:
Right. That’s why it’s been really interesting to me. One issue that we got involved in very early is we actually filed something called a motion to intervene in a lawsuit that was filed in New York City that aims to shut down that city’s gifted and talented programs. I mean, New York City’s specialized high schools are widely considered to be the crown jewel of the public education system in America. Again, it’s a testing system to get into. This is something that was led by a bunch of activist attorneys and an activist organization. it’s really interesting to me because a lot of the parents I spoke to suspected that this lawsuit was done kind of in concert with the city, because those programs in the city have become a bit of a political football. There’s a mayoral election this year in New York City and it’s something that everybody asks about.
As you pointed out, I mean, a lot of the democratic candidates who are running for mayor in New York, who were running on this whole equity pledge, they all send their kids either to these priceless high schools or to private schools-
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Nicole Neily:
… which is shameful that you are trying to deny other children the opportunity to make themselves better off. While these programs often are derided as being, oh, it’s just a bunch of white kids who can pay for test prep, actually, you look at schools like Brooklyn Tech at Stuyvesant, this is a lifeline for children that are coming out of poverty. 61% of the Asian children who are in those schools are actually below the poverty line. That’s actually a higher percentage than the Hispanic children and the same percentage as the African-American children in New York City. This is not just a rich white kid program. You are directly denying poor minority children a path out of poverty. That’s disgusting.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, it’s also really horrifying to think that what’s happening at TJ again, Thomas Jefferson, this merit based high school, that is a direct assault on the Asian community in Fairfax County. These Asian children test so high, they do so well. These parents have raised these incredibly brilliant kids who test well and get into TJ and now, because… I mean, it’s almost comical that because what, there’s too many Asian kids going to TJ, they are now going to do away with the system that allows a minority group to succeed. It is so twisted. It’s mind boggling. But listen, I want to get into, and I really want people who are listening to this to go to your site and find out some of the services that you offer. Because this is the thing, I want people to understand this.
Nicki’s organization isn’t just a think tank where… and believe me, there are some great think pieces and great scholars and you have a wonderful staff there. But you’re not just writing things, right? You are actually helping parents help their children, get involved in their activities. You said it at the beginning of the podcast where you said, “Parents have got to take a greater role in their children’s education.” You actually help them do that. A lot of organizations will say that, but very few actually are helping parents do that. Tell us about the services that your organization offers.
Nicole Neily:
Sure. I mean, to me, I don’t want people ever to think that education is an issue that can or will be solved by the federal government. Honestly, anytime the federal government gets involved in education, they make it worse. This is very much a state and a local-
Julie Gunlock:
I just have to say, can anyone tell that Nicki’s a libertarian? Go on.
Nicole Neily:
but also to go along with the libertarian theme, I’m not a micromanager because so many of the issues are hyper-local, right? What’s going on in Tulsa is different than what’s going on in Tulsa is different than what’s going on in [inaudible 00:19:28].
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Nicole Neily:
Just to have chapters in a playbook, that’s not going to work because one group might have a comprehensive sex ed issue, someone else might have the 1619 curriculum being floated in their schools. Everybody has different problems, so let’s give people the tools they need to adapt to their specific circumstances. We think of our programming in three buckets. The first is empower. I mean, I think about the old line from the GI Joe cartoon, knowing is half the battle. Let’s educate ourselves. There’s a lot of great resources out there like you alluded to, terrific white papers. Most people who are working a 9:00 to 5:00 job and trying to virtually school their kids-
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Nicole Neily:
… at this point in the pandemic are trying to also not get divorced and have a nervous breakdown. They don’t have time to go through the internet on a Tuesday night and figure out what is this thing I have heard about? We just wanted to collect a lot of the best articles studies and put them in one place so that people know this stuff has been curated, this is the best of the best.
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Nicole Neily:
That’s one part. The next part is expose. I am a firm believer in the saying, sunshine is the best disinfectant. The main kind of feature of this is we have a map on our website called the indoctrination map and nation is capitalized and on this map we are showing, you can break down by state or by issue, where different issues are taking or incidents are taking place across the country. I think unfortunately there’s a lot of people that kind of assume when they hear stuff in the news, “Oh, it’s California. Oh, it’s Manhattan.” They don’t realize this isn’t red state, this isn’t private schools, this isn’t parochial schools, this isn’t flyover countries. This is everywhere. We want to let people know this is in your backyard and you have to be vigilant. But I also don’t want to make people despondent. We also on our map have links and little dots that denote where there are local parent groups that have sprung up around the country to fight back against this.
These are people in these communities. This is not some creepy DC AstroTurf thing. I mean, these are people who live in these states that have said, “You know what? I’ve had enough.” It’s not a bunch of professional activists. They are people who have lives and kids and just have said, “You know what? I’m mad as heck and I’m not going to take it anymore.” Then the last part of this is engage. I’m a firm believer in the saying, politics goes to he who shows up. I think Dick Armey said that. This is time for us to show up. If you were upset, if you’re concerned, go and do something. And doing something doesn’t have to mean go and start your own parent organization. Because what I realized is at the end of the day, a lot of people are scared. I’m kind of uncancelable at this point, thank goodness. But we know a lot of people, I think, they credibly fear repercussions, retaliation, losing their job, being ducked. I mean, the people who push this stuff are really nefarious sometimes.
We want to give people a menu of options that they can engage on. It could be anything from send us an anonymous tip and we’ll put it up on the website, we’ll look into it. We can help file a FOIA. We can teach you how to file a FOIA. We have filed a bunch of complaints through the federal Department of Education’s office of civil rights. But also we just have how to guides on how to write a letter to the editor, how to write an op ed, how to start a parent group, how to create an anonymous Instagram account, which has been used to great effect at a number of private schools around the country. Everybody can do something. Because honestly, there are a majority of Americans right now that are deeply unhappy. It’s just people are silent. People are siloed because the opposition has really terrified people. That’s where we want to send a message and show them that there are thousands of us out there, there are hundreds of thousands of us out there. It’s time to pick up your tools and fight. Don’t just stand on the side, don’t just stay on Twitter, get out and do something about it. This is the most important fight of our lives.
Julie Gunlock:
I want to talk a little bit about your team, because one of the things that I love is we sort of live in the era of squads, right? AOC and her squad, which normally I find this all kind of silly, but you guys are kind of a squad. Parents Defending Education here, so my good friend, Nicki, who is on the phone with me now, but also Asra Nomani who, if you’re on… It’s so funny because we mentioned on Twitter and I know a lot of parents aren’t. But Asra is an absolute fierce warrior for education and her son actually goes to TJ, which I keep bringing up, but it’s this really remarkable high school where kids are tested. She’s been really involved in the fight for TJ, but she’s a great asset here too because she has fought as a mom. She has had these fights on Twitter. She has been attacked by her school board. She has faced people libeling her, people saying terrible things about her. She has faced this and fought it and understands that fear that parents feel.
I’m going to tell you, I feel it too. When I talk about this stuff, I feel very nervous. I think it’s great that you also have asked Asra there and also Erica Sanzi, who I think is my favorite personal in the world, except for you, right.? I’ve got to say that quickly, but Erica is so phenomenal. She has served, I think, on a school board and she has kids. The great thing about Erica is she has one kid in private and one kid in public and one kid somewhere else. She sort of experienced the different types of education that there is. I really want to compliment who you have at the organization. I think that’s important that people know that these aren’t, like you said, some random AstroTurf organization. These are moms who are currently fighting this right now and understand how it feels to be a parent kind of feeling helpless at times, I’m sure.
Nicole Neily:
I think what’s so interesting is people are well across the country. Also Asra is a former investigative journalist, which is so-
Julie Gunlock:
That’s right.
Nicole Neily:
She picks up on these little threads and she pulls them together. It’s not just what’s going on in the school, it’s connecting the dots to, oh, well what’s happening in Virginia is also what’s happening in Boston is also what’s happening in Texas. Then, oh, this consultant was hired by this place. Just to pull all of that together, I mean, she has been sniffing out, I call it the diversity industrial complex, because there are billions of dollars behind all of this-
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Nicole Neily:
… being pushed against parents’ wills, oftentimes somewhat surprisingly pushed against a lot of teachers’ wills. A lot of our kids come from teachers who don’t like what’s being shoved down their throats either.
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Nicole Neily:
There is this kind of underground resistance of people who are out there and then people like us that will stick our heads out and say, “You know what? If [inaudible 00:25:59] going to come, come for me.” But this is it.
Julie Gunlock:
You mentioned teachers, and this is one interesting sort of segue into that. There is a teacher in New York City, who objected. Rossi was his name and I can’t remember the private school that he taught at, but a very elite New York City private school, $40, $50,000 a year. He wrote this absolutely withering open letter to about what he’s being asked to do and essentially indoctrinate the kids in his classroom and he said he wouldn’t do it. Has he been fired from that job for reporting that?
Nicole Neily:
I know he was told to not go into the school because they said that there were some security threats. But I don’t know if he was totally fired or not. The whole thing seemed a little bit questionable quite honestly.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, it is, but it was incredibly brave. Of course, another father, I think his last name’s Gutmann. I can’t remember. I think it’s Fred Gutmann, but he’s also received a lot of harassment online and again, I don’t mean to scare people or say, “Oh, don’t do it,” but these are incredibly… and I encourage everyone to look up those letters and read them because it is very brave what they did. I think it is going to become easier. Sort of there’s safety in numbers and I think it’s going to become easier. But I think also when we start to see, I’d mentioned, you know, Virginia getting rid of TAG math or GNT math, however you want to say it, and these advanced diplomas, I mean, I think there’s going to actually be things that start to harm people in a way that they recognize.
People have really got to get active. The one thing that I love about your organization and I want to wrap up on this is that you, and you mentioned it, but I love the idea of you can give a tip anonymously. I have enjoyed giving tips through that side. I feel like sort of it’s cleansing. It works out my anger issues because it… But it is important to give people an anonymous outlet. As you mentioned, Asra is working for you, she’s an investigative reporter. It’s not that these things are just reported and with no checking. Tell us a little bit about that tip line that you have and what happens with those tips.
Nicole Neily:
Sure. They come in through our portal. People can check a box actually to specifically denote if they like to be anonymous or not. But people can upload files. They can send PDFs, screenshots, videos, URLs just to let us know what’s going on. Because there are a few reporters out there like Chris Rufo, Barry Weiss that have been reporting on this. I mean, honestly we could create 50 more of them. There is so much material and it is heartbreaking. A lot of these people, they just want to be heard. They need a little bit of reinsurance, I’m not crazy. And they’re not crazy. I mean, so it’s astonishing. When the tips come in, it goes to our system and we vet everything. I mean, we’re not going to put something up on our map if we don’t chase it down.
We go to great lengths to make sure that nobody can tell when they read a tip where it’s come from. We also won’t just throw up hearsay. We want some proof, we wants some documentation, we want some backup. If somebody doesn’t have it, it’s not the end of the world. I mean, we will chase down and often where there’s smoke, there’s fire. But we want to be able to stand behind everything that is up on our website. We’ll get on the phone with people. We have these tips that we then hand off to reporters then who can… sometimes they’ll have a bigger platform than just it being on our website and languishing there. We’ve been able to break a number of stories over the past few weeks, which is really encouraging and every time that happens, it makes it raises just a little bit more awareness with people. People realizing, oh, this is happening in the town over from me and then they know-
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Nicole Neily:
… what to keep an eye out for. They know what the terms to listen for are. They kind of know what to be vigilant about. To me, I think this is starting to… this has the potential really to implement a lot of discipline in the system. You joked about me being libertarian, kind of libertarian as I am, I don’t actually think that everybody in the school system is bad. I mean, I think there are a lot of teachers, a lot of principals, superintendents, who last summer, they felt that they had to put out a statement, not realizing that the words that they chose sometimes were unconstitutional, sometimes were ill-considered, not understand the difference between equity and equality, stuff like that.
I think, we have to educate kind of everyone across the board. Because I think if a principal realizes that something that a teacher is trying to get away with, it might end up on the front page of their paper, might end up on TV tonight, frankly, it’s going to make them think twice about letting people get away with murder and that’s what we need. We need more accountability in our system.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, and the thing is, is that it is astonishing to me the boldness with which some of these activist teachers and administrators are acting. I agree with you, not everyone is bad. We have seen, actually IWF has done some work in this area and we’ve received letters actually from teachers saying, “I’m so nervous. I’m so scared. I don’t know what to do. I’m really trapped.” I understand the fear is not just from parents, the fear is also from teachers. But honestly, it’s interesting to me, part of the reason that Parents Defending Education exists, and I know that these incidents don’t just happen in public schools, they also happen in private schools. But part of the reason these organizations like yours are so needed and why these voices and brave people speaking up, is because there isn’t school choice.
I don’t want to… You’re like, “Wait, are we going to get into that? We’ll be on for another two hours.” I’m not trying to get into that. But it does say something that part of the reason that the school administrators and some teachers, some activist teachers have become so bold is because people don’t have choice. They can’t walk away. When I talk about choice, I also talk about, for instance, I’m doing a system where I’m homeschooling, but I also have a tutor. That is a great expense to us and so if the government was giving money in various forms to families, rather than institutions, I could more afford more services for my son, private services. I could look at different things. He has some really interesting interests and I could tailor his education to those interests instead of shoving this round thing… What is the phrase? Round thing into a square hole. I can’t even think.
Nicole Neily:
Round peg, square hole.
Julie Gunlock:
Peg, thank you. Anyway, so the point is that I think this is all… Your organization could actually increase… I know it’s not totally related and you don’t talk about school choice and that’s not the mission, but in some ways I think when people get wind of this, when they see how really some just education in general has gotten so out of control and how kids and families opinions don’t matter anymore to many of these administrators and teachers, and again, that’s private and public, people are going to want more flexibility. If that means staying home with their kids and partly homeschooling or joining pods, or doing micro schools or online schools, whatever it is, people are going to want more choice. I think your organization is going to help really steer people to understand the importance of school choice.
Nicole Neily:
I mean, with public schools this is all being done to our children with our tax dollars-
Julie Gunlock:
With our tax.
Nicole Neily:
… against our will, which is insult to injury. I mean-
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Nicole Neily:
… I think, there are things that we could do that would make a big difference overnight. If there were greater curriculum transparency and people knew what their kids were learning, I think people would be screaming bloody murder. In the state of Texas there’s a law, you have to be able to get from a public universities’ homepage to a classroom syllabus within three clicks. I can know what my college sophomore is learning, but I cannot know what my kindergartner is learning. That’s insane. Parents deserve to know what their children are learning. Then also, if I don’t like it, I should be able to opt my child out of controversial teaching. If states have opt out provision, it is generally only for very narrow parts of sex ed.
Again, we need greater control over this. This should not be a controversial issue. There are things that can and should happen. But I agree, I mean, at the end of the day, if I don’t like it, I’m a customer and I should be able to walk away with my child and my money. The fact that this is so hard for so many people is a travesty.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, I am hoping. I think that honestly, I’m not one to say, “Oh, the good part about COVID.” But this really has been a remarkable year in terms of educating parents about what their kids are seeing and hearing in the classroom. Just a very quick story. It was last summer where my son was going to attend the city’s public middle school and I wrote an article about this, about he came in, he’s playing out in the backyard and I said, “Hey, your orientation is starting.” The Dean of his class, so in this middle school there’s a Dean for each class and the Dean of his class at the orientation had several political messages behind his back on a flag. His background was one of those sort of, it looked like a sign that has a bunch of political messages.
I mean, that had nothing… This was right after George Floyd’s death and so people were hypersensitive about things and it was definitely a time where everybody was talking about that issue. But this is an orientation for an 11 year old. I could tell he was sort of nervous when he saw that and thought, “Oh dear, it’s going to be…” But it is not the first. I had dealt with it. I had been dealing with increasing politicalization within the school for a year, so I knew at that point we’re done. That really was the straw.
But again, I was able to make that choice. Financially, we were able to get him out of there and enroll them in a different school. The fact that more parents can’t do that is both sad, but it’s also why your organization needs to exist and I’m so glad it does exist, Nicki. I’m thrilled about the women that are working with you. This is just a great organization. Tell everyone where they can find you and the links and where you are on Twitter and all of that.
Nicole Neily:
Sure. The website is defendinged.org. And then we are on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram, I think. Honestly, I’m not sure. But the [inaudible 00:36:46] is definitely defendinged.org. If you look it up in Facebook, it should pop up because Facebook knows everything.
Julie Gunlock:
I really do encourage everyone to go to Parents Defending Education. But mostly I encourage you all to look at how you can submit a tip, you can fill out information for their maps so that other people in your community can go to that map. But more than that, share that this exists with your parent group, with your social group, make sure that parents know that this exists. Because I think there are a lot of parents who… it’s sort of like when I would fight with people on Facebook and nobody would support me, but then I’d go to school pickup and three or four moms would come up to me and quietly whisper, “I saw what you said to this particular PTA mom and I really appreciate you fighting back.”
There’s a lot of scared people who don’t want to come out, feeling a certain way or don’t want to be public, but they definitely need the resources. Do what you can to share this. Nicki, thanks so much for coming on and sharing this very important information.
Nicole Neily:
Thanks for having me.
Julie Gunlock:
For parents who are listening to this and just listened to what Nicki had to say again, I really do encourage people to check out that new organization and follow… I don’t know that Nicki’s on Twitter, but Erica Sanzi is and Astra Nomani is. They are on Twitter and I really encourage you to follow them because they comment on news as it comes down and the organization itself is on Twitter. So I do encourage people to visit the organization and look at their resources and fill out their tip line.
I don’t think, I hope this podcast does something to inform people about how damaging this anti-racism, CRT philosophy is among the most vile aspects of this religion. It is a religion, is that it tells white children that they are racist and simply by virtue of having white skin. They are racist and there’s no changing it. There’s no escaping it. If you’re white, you’re racist and then to deny it to say, “No, I’m not a racist,” it is more proof that you’re racist. It’s this sort of evil circle. But that’s not it. What CRT does to children of color I think is much worse. It tells them that they are victims of a racist society, a society that will never recognize their talents or work or hard work and that’s because of the color of their skin.
The theory essentially demands that they remain victims, that they will never overcome the challenges that come from living essentially in a deeply racist society, which is America. It is victimology on crack. These efforts to sort of codify that into school processes, into school policy is going to do great damage. I hope you took something away from this podcast and I hope you learned something. Nicki Neily’s new organization is really there to help parents, so I encourage everyone to check it out and learn more about this really important issue.
Thanks everyone for being here for another episode of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. If you enjoyed this episode or like the podcast in general, please leave a rating or review on iTunes. This helps ensure that the podcast reaches as many listeners as possible. If you haven’t subscribed to the Bespoke Parenting Hour on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, please do so, so you won’t miss an episode. Don’t forget to share this episode and let your friends know that they can get Bespoke episodes on their favorite podcast app. From all of us here at the Independent Women’s Forum, thanks for listening.