On the latest Bespoke Parenting Hour, host Julie Gunlock speaks to Ali, a mom who set up a “pandemic learning pod” in her home for her own four kids as well as a few neighborhood kids. Julie and Ali discuss the challenges of pulling kids out of a traditional school setting, the joys of watching your child thrive and grow educationally, the search for a curriculum that fits, and the question of if there will ever be a return to the public schools (spoiler: not likely!). Tune in for this inspiring conversation!
TRANSCRIPT
Julie Gunlock:
Hey, everyone. I’m Julie Gunlock, your host for another episode of The Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to the program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families, themselves, and, most importantly, their kids. So many people have heard me tell my own story of having to scramble when my school closed and didn’t reopen. It still hasn’t really reopened. They are allowing kids in two times a week fully masked. But when those kids get back into the classroom, they still stare at their computer because their teacher is still conducting Zoom school with the kids that have decided to stay home. So, really, not much has changed. They certainly are not back to regular school.
When it happened, I decided to pull two of my kids out, as I’ve talked about on this program. When I say out, I chose to pull them out of the public schools, and I had to get creative. So have many other parents. Today I have a really special guest on. Ali is the mother of four. We’ve decided to keep Ali’s full name and location private due to concerns she has, and I think a lot of other parents have, about speaking publicly and critically about her public school.
Just a little bit of background, when Ali’s children’s public school closed last year, they started with the virtual school system that her public school had set up. We call it Zoom school. But she went ahead and tried it. So, for a couple months in the spring, they were all doing the virtual school system, again, through her public school. By the fall, she realized that her kids needed something different. So she joined with other families in her neighborhood that were also concerned about problems that they’d been seeing with the virtual school system, and they formed a pandemic pod for all of her children. This was a really creative solution, and we’re going to talk about that today. Ali is here to talk about that pandemic pod and also answer some questions about what it’s like to essentially run a mini-school for not just your own children, but for other children. Ali, thanks so much for coming on with us today.
Ali:
Thanks for having me.
Julie Gunlock:
Ali, we did a pandemic learning story on you through IWF, and everybody can read Ali’s story. If you go to IWF, you’ll see the section on pandemic learning, and we have a whole bunch of really fascinating, fabulous, first-person stories about what parents have done, really creative stories about how parents have dealt with schooling their children during the pandemic. Ali is one of those featured stories, so you can read more. But, Ali, I first want you to just answer a really basic question. What is a pod? What’s a learning pod?
Ali:
Yeah. For us, we’ve pulled out of the district, and then we’ve signed PSA forms that says that we’re homeschooling individually, and then we’re basically all homeschooling together. We just outsource the main subjects to our teacher, who’s amazing. For us, we have the age groups all separated, so we have in our garage, we converted that space. We’re doing a pre-K pod in our garage, taught by me and our nanny combined. And then, down the street, my parents own a home. They live in Texas, so they’ve allowed us to transform that space into a little … like a mini-school. We put up a whiteboard and desks, and that’s where our first and fourth graders learn together out of. We have first grade in the morning, and then they leave, and then fourth grade comes in the mid-afternoon. So, for us, it’s just four kids to one teacher. And we picked all the curriculum, and it’s kind of like an efficient school day. They’re just doing it together in a small group setting.
Julie Gunlock:
So many questions because one thing that I think is really interesting, and I don’t quite know where to start, but space is really important in these situations. I have three children at home, and they’re all in a different type of learning format. One of my children, he’s actually doing an entire school that’s entirely virtual. It’s a Catholic school that’s all virtual, and we can get into that a little bit later and why we chose a Catholic ritual school. But I have one still in the public schools. He’s leaving at the end of this year. And then I’m homeschooling one of my children.
But, in any format, when you have three kids at home, space is so, so important. Certainly, if you’re going to have a neighborhood pod, having that extra space is so important. You’re so lucky that you have that extra house that your parents have allowed you to put that out. But what are the things? What were some of the supplies that you needed when you first got started? I think you’re probably like me. Didn’t really realize everything that you needed. So what were some of the things that were like, oh, my gosh, we need to supply up on this?
Ali:
I think the garage space is probably one that could be implemented more easily, obviously, by somebody that doesn’t have a home sitting down the street that they can utilize. So, I mean, that one in particular, we basically just bought those little foamy square things that go together and covered our floor. I hung up sheets over the garage-looking things. We put our bikes up on the wall. We just organized it and got a freestanding whiteboard. I got bookcases from IKEA to put our materials in. I bought their dress-up rack and their Lego bins and stuff, and then two little tables that we got used from … just cheap … but good enough quality for the kids. So the garage space has actually been totally functional and great for the pre-K. And then, I mean, the other school, we just went a little more … We took out my parents’ furniture in half the side of the room and got a rug. But some of the materials, like the curriculum, those things we’ve split the cost with the other parents. Yeah. Curriculum, school supplies-
Julie Gunlock:
Can I ask … That was another question. Curriculum is a big part of this. A lot of people do it themselves. I am not that person. I am using a curriculum that comes as a package. I have a curriculum guide, and I have all the teacher’s manuals. It all comes together. Did you choose a curriculum company? I’d love to hear which one you chose. But did you use that sort of a school in a box?
Ali:
I did a Homeschool Bootcamp. One of the other parents did it as well, and she went over high-level education philosophies, Charlotte Mason, classical, traditional, to help me understand what type of curriculum and how I wanted my kids to learn. I think it also gave me more confidence as a parent, that there are a lot of different ways to educate. A group sits down and makes standards based on what they think they want your kids to learn. I agree with a lot of those standards. What’s keeping our eye on all the California standards is that kids can re-enroll at any time, in any school setting. But it did just give me more confidence. She also acts as a curriculum consultant.
I was also given some other websites to look at. Timberdoodle has curriculum packs. And Apologia … I mean, we’re a Christian family, so there are some Christian resources that I found that I really like. And then there are other ones that we just knew that our teacher had taught with at her school. So we did a combo, or utilized some curriculums recommended by the curriculum consultant who does this Homeschool Bootcamp, and then a combo of what I found and what my teacher found, and brought in the Tuttle Twins books and other-
Julie Gunlock:
Oh, I love the Tuttle Twins!
Ali:
… things that I wanted them to learn. I know.
Julie Gunlock:
Right? Free market principles at an early age. Excellent work.
Ali:
Yes. I know.
Julie Gunlock:
Yeah. But I think what you’re talking about here, though, I mean, I hear you talking about, okay, we use garage space. Luckily, my parents have a house down the road, and we’re able to use that. But the point is to be creative, and the point also is there’s not one size fits all. So you made the garage less distracting by putting up the sheets. But I feel like, even for people … Let’s say you live in a tiny house, and you don’t have a garage. Okay. That would be me. Okay. Look. I think the other thing with pods is that it doesn’t always have to be at your house. If you have neighbors that you’re sharing with, it sounds like you have an ideal situation.
Ali:
Totally.
Julie Gunlock:
But if you decide to do this podding with other parents and there is a teacher, on Mondays and Wednesdays the teacher goes one place. On Tuesdays and Thursdays … I mean, you get it. You can alternate, and that does give you a little bit of downtime. But the other thing is … Now I want to be very careful on this and never say, “Oh, just for $300 or $500.” But for a far less amount of money than adding on to your house or moaning about it, you can buy a tent, one of those large tents. And so, on days where the weather allows, not a 90-degree day with the 100% humidity, maybe, but on cooler days, in the fall and the spring and the early summer, you certainly can use outdoor space. That’s what’s so great about podding or homeschooling or doing whatever, microschool, is the amount of flexibility that parents have. Is that-
Ali:
And, for you, outdoor space might be easier to come by. For us, garage space is because nobody has a plot of land outdoors beyond their home. So you’re like, “We’ve got outdoor space.” I’m like, “Outdoor space? That would be great.”
Julie Gunlock:
What’s that?
Ali:
We have garage space.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, I won’t tell you-
Ali:
Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.
Julie Gunlock:
… I’m really happy that we have a yard, but my husband is like … He has these personal goals where he says, “Before the age of X, I am going to have a garage.” He feels like he’s missing out on some sort of man test, that he doesn’t have-
Ali:
Got it.
Julie Gunlock:
… a garage. It’s very sad. So I want to just put a plug in. We use Memoria Press. It is a Christian-based curriculum as well, and that was another thing that I loved. My children have been going to the public schools for so long and it is … Look. We don’t have to re-litigate whether Christianity should be in schools. This is only a one-hour podcast, after all. But it is just, even around Christmas, there’s just such a nervousness about in any way there being a religious tone to anything. I remember going in and I brought a book to read to my son’s class. It happened to be a Christian book, and I could tell the teacher was very nervous about that.
So that’s one thing that’s also nice and part of the flexibility, is being able to integrate these Christian concepts into learning. It’s a part of learning. To me, that’s the way it should be, so it’s really nice to be able to choose. But for people who don’t want that, there are some people who are not religious, and they might want a more secular-based curriculum. They have those as well. So don’t feel like you have be part of a Christian homeschool community or a Catholic homeschool community. There’s really something for everyone out there. So just to-
Ali:
I think a misconception about homeschooling, too, is that … I mean, people say, “Oh, you’re homeschooling this year,” and I’m like, “Well, it doesn’t feel like homeschooling because we have teachers.”
Julie Gunlock:
That’s right.
Ali:
Because my impression, and frankly, that model of all of the kids learning just with me under our one roof, I mean, that wouldn’t work for my four kids, especially one of mine that just really needs the structure, and it doesn’t come quite as easily. There’s definitely a variety of models, and I do think a lot of homeschoolers end up getting in these co-op groups so they have peers and that experience as well.
Julie Gunlock:
What’s exciting is I think that there’s now this newfound interest in homeschooling. I hope the communities grow because if they grow, then there will be more partnerships like this. You mentioned this doesn’t feel like homeschooling to me, which it kind of is. I mean, we call it pandemic pod learning, or having a microschool is what you’ve set up. But, ultimately, you’re using homeschool materials, and you’re creating it yourself. And so, I, too, I’m homeschooling my oldest child, and I really like what you say because I think there’s a lot of working parents out there who think, well, I can’t do it because I work. Well, I actually work a full-time job. That’s why I’m on this podcast right now. This is actually hosted by IWF, my employer, and IWF is very … That offers enormous flexibility. Most of us who work at IWF are moms, and so we get that we need flexibility.
But I think what a lot of people who are in this situation who might particularly have older kids, maybe middle … second year, middle school to high school, a lot of these kids can do things on their own. Really, we should be working towards that, where even as you’re a homeschooling mom, I don’t want to hover over my 15-year-old. He should be able … And I have a 14-year-old that I’m homeschooling right now. He just turned 14, and I am trying to get him to do more and more things on his own and to complete tasks on his own. That’s really the goal.
So I think, for a lot of people I know, I understand that if you don’t work at home … I mean, first of all, if you work, period. But then there are some people who work at home where it’s easier. But for older kids, I think it really is possible to do a situation where maybe they’re required to do certain things during the day, and then, at night, maybe you check things, or you work with them, or you help them with certain topics, obviously. But the other thing you mentioned, and I love this, you have a teacher. I have a tutor. I have a tutor who comes in and teaches him … My son is doing algebra. I can’t really do long division, so, obviously, a tutor was an answer there.
There’s also a lot of online courses. So if you feel like, okay, I don’t want to teach my child algebra or chemistry or whatever, there’s very, very inexpensive, very affordable online courses. So I think it’s so great to hear, like you say, okay, we’re in it with other families, but we’ve also hired help to do it. I think sometimes people think that’s just economically impossible. It’s much more available to people than I think people realize.
Ali:
Yeah. Definitely.
Julie Gunlock:
So you pulled your kids out. You have a pandemic pod. We need to stop calling it that. We need to think of a nicer name. You guys should pick an actual name for your little school. Maybe you have. But what is it like in your community? Have you seen more of this? Are people leaving the public schools? Are they waking up to the idea of school choice? Because, ultimately, let’s remember. Everybody should be able to do what we’re doing. That would be wonderful if everyone could do what we’re doing. What is your community being like? I know we want to keep you anonymous. But tell us a little bit about are you the total oddball? Are you the one who’s doing this, and no one else is? What’s it been like?
Ali:
Well, I think there were a number of pods. It’s interesting because I talked to a homeschool consultant that was referred to me here locally as well. She was interested how we made it successful, because there were a number that kind of crashed and burned, because it is … There are a lot of interpersonal dynamics, so finding the right teacher, the right families that have similar goals, that’s all important. But, also, there are some others that did the same thing, where they pulled out and they hired a teacher. The two pods that I know of that did that, both of them have kids that want to continue in this model. So I think it’s been an opportunity. The alternative didn’t work for us, so it was like why not experiment? What better year, you know?
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Ali:
What better opportunity where you have other families where the online model isn’t working? So then, either freshly learning to read and write, because I have a younger … where that just is a lot on the parent, and I have a newborn baby. But we’ve also seen, because I am in California, a lot of people maybe leaving the state for other states that have schools that are more functioning and normal. We’ve also seen a huge shift to private. There’s a lot of kids leaving the public school in general because it’s still not fully open, and private schools have wait lists. So that’s the other thing. I think there will have to be some innovation around it, but I do think that, for us, it was a blessing in disguise because it just opened our eyes to think outside of the box.
Now that we’ve had the experience of our kids thriving and loving this model, I think it’s a bigger risk for someone who hasn’t experienced or tasted what it could be like, because I think there is some security. It seems like some families find and just … especially if you don’t have an education background, which I do thankfully have my credential, not that it’s needed. But it’s interesting because a friend pointed out that those that have education backgrounds seemed like they felt more comfortable pulling initially, and just like it’s okay. We can pull out of this system, and my kid’s going to do fine, and we’re not going to have holes or gaps. But I think anybody can. I think everyone should evaluate what’s right for their family, and you don’t need a credential by any means, but it’s just-
Julie Gunlock:
Yeah. I’m glad that-
Ali:
… interesting to see people. It feels like it takes a little bit of a risk, I guess, when you outsource the education and you have trust that the system is going to serve your family. And then, when the system maybe isn’t best serving your family and you’re reevaluating, I think it’s unless you see an example. So maybe that’s the benefit of you guys posting the other examples, to give people an idea in their head of what it could be apart from maybe the more limited picture we might have or I might’ve had before.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, it’s interesting that you say about the educational background, the educational credentials. I don’t want to be critical of anyone who has those. I think that’s great. It must be helpful. But what’s been really interesting is that I actually have a child who has a learning issue. It’s really not a major problem, but it does affect his ability to learn at some points. I will tell you, I was intimidated when I started out, particularly because that’s the child that I would be homeschooling, and also because after years of the public school system, of being told, “This is what you should expect from your son, and this is what you should expect from him to accomplish,” I think it had been beaten into me that I couldn’t possibly help my son.
What’s so interesting is … And I’ve told this story a couple times, and it’s still makes me very mad. But when my son was very young, he has some issues with actually writing his thoughts down. I’m talking with a pencil. As it was explained to me, I think this is probably true of a lot of kids. I don’t think this is exactly just unique to him. But he just had racing thoughts, and then trying to organize those thoughts, and when a child is learning to use a pencil, I mean, we forget it’s actually hard, the mechanics of it. So he just would have a really hard time writing his letters down and organizing his thoughts, and then he’d lose track of what he was saying. Anyways, he wasn’t really a good writer and the mechanics of it.
I’ll never forget when the sped teacher told me, “Just give up on it. Just give up on it, Julie. Just give up on it. He’ll never be a good writer.” She was so smug and dismissive. I mean, I had major meetings. The district I’m in, I’m in Alexandria City. The head of special ed had a meeting with me and was so determined to get me to stop trying to get the teachers to attend to this issue. Finally, I gave in because you get beaten so much, and you’re so tired of hearing about it. They were telling me things like, “Your focus on this is hurting him. It’s preventing him to progress into other areas.” They talked to me about all this technology. They have voice-to-text technology, and I won’t go into it. But the point is that I sort of gave up on that. Everyone did. He was just typing. But, again, they don’t teach kids that young typing, so he was hunt and pecking instead of being a fast typer, so it was just as frustrating.
Anyway, bottom line, he’s home. He’s home for the first year. We started, obviously, in September, and within just a few weeks, I saw amazing improvement in his writing. And, because the curriculum that we chose … It’s a classic curriculum, and he’s required, in order to memorize, to do a lot of memorization. So it was the root just over and over again, writing the same thing over and over again. And from then on, I have been so resentful of what are called educational experts and people with educational backgrounds.
Ali:
I hear you. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. I think I’ve noticed it’s given people a little more confidence to take that step because maybe it’s less intimidating. But I don’t think that makes you any more qualified to homeschool. Does that make sense?
Julie Gunlock:
Yes, it does.
Ali:
Yeah. I think people are just maybe a little more … You’re a little less nervous to take the jump. But I think anybody should and could if your kid isn’t being well served in the environment that they’re in. And that’s awesome to hear. On the radio, I just heard a story yesterday about a daughter whose even parents had given up on her being able to read, and her sister was like, “No, I’m going to teach you to read,” and she did. So part of that, too, is just we’re their parents, so it’s like I’m going to go the extra mile. I’m going to do the research to figure out my daughter that has a visual memory deficit. I’m going to do the extra research to be sure we have the best spelling differentiated program and know all … you know?
Julie Gunlock:
Sure. Right.
Ali:
Because she’s my kid. So I believe in her. That’s a good story. Thanks for sharing.
Julie Gunlock:
Thanks, Ali. All of these are really good stories. I’ve heard so many great stories and so many encouraging stories, and I hope that it really has opened up this possibility of homeschooling your children. It’s never too late. I started homeschooling my son when he was entering the eighth grade, and I think that’s kind of late. If you’re in the homeschool community, and there’s a big community of homeschoolers, sometimes people think that’s too late. I will always thank a woman from Memoria Press who helped me design this curriculum for my son because she kept saying, “He’s going to do great. This is perfect. We’re just going to help him catch up a little bit.”
I will tell you, that was the other beauty of homeschooling, was that my son definitely needed to catch up in certain subjects because he’d fallen a little bit behind. Really, the quality of the education was not what we had wanted, so we’d been thinking about this for a long time. So he actually helped. He reviewed his sixth grade and seventh grade. He’s done like three years of math curriculum in this one year, and part of that was review. I think that’s another thing. One thing I want you to touch on next is the reason my son was able to do all that math is because it really doesn’t take that long. I loved in your pandemic story, you talked about they learn in the morning and then they have a lot of time off to play and do what they want. Tell us about that. What’s your day like?
Ali:
Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s different for my one that goes in the morning versus the afternoon. But, basically, I do feel like the learning is so much more efficient. Even if you think about a math class, how many questions kids have, or a lot of it’s just a lot of the day is transitions, or even when they present, they have 25 presentations to get through as opposed to four. So they just get through the material so much quicker. And they also … The teacher knows that every student has really gotten it before they move on. And they can go faster or slower, depending on … It’s just so much more personalized and customized to the kid, and the relationship with the teacher is stronger so they know … I feel it’s way more efficient.
I definitely feel like they’re learning more. Especially, I mean, the writing skills have so improved, and just even annotating and note-taking and things that just she hadn’t developed yet. But, definitely, I feel like in half the amount of time there learning more, and then there’s this margin that we didn’t have before. My daughter that had barely read for pleasure before COVID hit. Then, after COVID, I literally think she’s read over a hundred books.
Julie Gunlock:
Amazing.
Ali:
She just discovered a love for reading. So it’s … Yeah. And then that helps with obviously reading’s amazing. But her typing has gone from like … She’s discovered a Nitro Type game, and she’s gone from 20 words per minute to in the nineties.
Julie Gunlock:
Oh, wow.
Ali:
There’s more margins to do-
Julie Gunlock:
There’s more time.
Ali:
… science outdoor classes and more time. Yeah. More time.
Julie Gunlock:
I want to pivot a little bit. It was interesting. In your pandemic story, you talked about … I mean, this is related to the fact that the pandemic hit at the same time that the video of George Floyd’s death came out, which created obvious horror and concern throughout the country, and, actually, I would say around the globe. It happened at the same time, so now it’s created, I think, a reaction among some schools that is not helpful and has brought politics. A lot of schools now think that they need to bring more discussions of politics in, what I think are issues best kept out of the schools and/or taught in a way that’s based in reality.
So we saw a lot of what I would say the critical race theory stuff starting in our school, which is why we’re unlikely to return to our public school. It’s not just because of the great strides and that my child is thriving so much homeschooling, but it’s also because I’m really concerned about how they’re going to be taught in the public school. You had a similar experience. Tell us a little bit about what you discovered when you checked on your public school’s website.
Ali:
Yeah. I was getting emails from our superintendent at the time of the George Floyd protests, and I went back after things started to unfold in culture, to see what was coming from my school district and what they were, because there was a recommended reading link that initially I didn’t click on. Probably most parents don’t, to be honest. But I clicked on it because I wanted to know what our school was putting out there for parents to read. It was just very politicized and, definitely, I mean, put people in categories and groups based on skin color and described whole groups as a whole based on skin color. That’s not how I view myself or my kids, or how I want them to view other people. I just think grouping people by immutable characteristics and describing those groups as a whole is going to cause and not prevent prejudice and bias and racism.
So I clicked on it. I emailed my superintendent very respectfully and asked, “It seems like teaching kids to be anti-racist is a high value to you, so how is that going to impact curriculum?” And then he led me to recently adopted social justice standards and told me other ways that he’s hoping to bring that into the classroom. And the standards talked about that, that identity comes from groups you belong to and the way those groups intersect, and then it’s just furthered. I mean, they brought in a group to do an equity audit, equal outcome as opposed to equal opportunity, and then they formed a commission that will work with the equity group or the equity audit to give their recommendations. Some of it is the language is so like we all oppose racism. We all want-
Julie Gunlock:
Right. Of course we do.
Ali:
… justice. But it’s like what is the method being employed to fight it? That is not being clearly laid out for parents. Most of what I’ve discovered, by doing a little bit of digging, parents still in the district are totally unaware of.
Julie Gunlock:
Totally unaware of. Yeah.
Ali:
So I think that’s … Yeah. So I mean, that obviously is something that I don’t want my kids to be taught. But, also, I mean, our school did a no place for hate. They want to be a no place for hate school and did a lesson on our school cares, you know, with the school name. And who doesn’t want to be a no place for hate? Who doesn’t? But then you click on that, and it goes to the Anti-Defamation League. And then you click on their sample lessons and they’re all politicized curriculum. Social justice poetry. What is the electoral college? Should we get rid of it?
When I asked my principal, she said, “This is the type of school we want to be, and so, maybe, if this doesn’t align with your worldview, you might want to find a better spot.” So, at least, I mean, there are … Yeah. That’s where we’re at. But I think a lot of parents, if I hadn’t dug and if I hadn’t clicked on the links and then followed up with the superintendent and called my principal, I mean, I really wouldn’t know what changes are being implemented or what’s coming down the pipe.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, I feel like there’s two kinds of people, two kinds of parents. First of all, every single parent … There is just a teeny number of parents who don’t want things like kids to be taught about racism and America’s history of slavery and Jim Crow and the continued discrimination of Blacks in this country. These are things that I literally don’t know one person who objects to that and objects to that being a part of the curriculum. You explained it really beautifully, Ali. I will tell you, it’s really interesting to hear you talk about it because you really have a handle on what we’re looking at. This is categorizing kids, making some feel bad for their color, others feel like they are oppressors. Others feel like they are victims. It is a really sick way of looking at the world, and it’s very dangerous.
But I think, like you said, these things are often wrapped in this language of things like we want to fight racism. We want equality. There’s this confusion between equality and equity that a lot of people don’t understand. It’s very nuanced. So I think, also, some parents, after seeing what happened with the killing of George Floyd, I think that a lot of people just felt terrible and thought we really need these programs. But they’re not looking at the details like you are. They’re not clicking on the links like you are and understanding that what is being taught is actually racism. It is a complete perversion of what needs to be taught. These are children we’re talking about, that are being made to feel bad for immutable qualities, like you mentioned.
So I think that I’ve seen this, too, in my community, where people genuinely don’t know. And then, when they find out, you’ve got two courses, what I was talking about, the two parents. Absolute terror. Absolute terror to speak out. And then the folks who … I mean, I think there are some people who just actually believe in critical race theory. Frankly, I think a lot of people misunderstand what it is. But there are some people who see this stuff and go, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. This does not pass the smell test,” and yet are really afraid to speak out. We kept your name … I think what you’re doing is entirely brave in coming on these shows. But do you feel a sense of nervousness of speaking out about your school and about maybe some policies that have been put in place?
Ali:
Well, I think pretty much the majority of parents near me do, and not just parents. I mean, there’s kind of a feeling that you’ll lose your job if you don’t agree with the method that is being implemented. And even I’ll just say I’ve posted the social justice standards on Nextdoor, very … I feel like-
Julie Gunlock:
Innocuously.
Ali:
… I try to be as respectful as possible. Whether you like this or not, you could, you might not, but you should know, just because I had to dig to find it, and there have been curriculum standards that have changed. So I just wanted to bring that to attention. I got a lot of nasty messages, and then I kind of after a day, like, I’m going to take it down. And then I felt a little convicted, like, look, I’m just … This is so objective. I’m just putting it there and letting you know. I have to get thicker skin. It’s no big deal. So then my husband’s like, “Okay. Put it back up, but take the comments off.”
So I was like, “Okay.” Because he’s like, “You know your heart is just to bring awareness.” It’s like, okay, I’ll put it back up and take the comments off. But people did not like that I took the comments off. Within a day my post had been removed by Nextdoor admins. So that’s what I also see happening. There’s a lot of not even allowing the conversation to happen, which is so unfortunate because I’ve found my neighbors, that we don’t necessarily agree or politically or we didn’t vote the same way, but I’ve talked with a number of them just about the methods being employed to fight something that everybody can agree, probably, that racism … I don’t think anybody … Nobody I know, at least, that I’ve talked to, values racism. But the method being employed, I think, is something that more people than we would think will agree is off, you know? But I think-
Julie Gunlock:
Yeah. Well, and this is-
Ali:
And one of the moms told me. She’s like, “Gosh, the way you’re explaining this, I agree with what you’re saying, but I’m very liberal.” She’s like, “I don’t think everybody knows. I don’t think everybody knows what’s being implemented.” So that’s what I-
Julie Gunlock:
Well, there’s been a-
Ali:
I think not everybody knows.
Julie Gunlock:
There’s also been a misuse of … I mean, there really has been, I would say, an overuse of a couple words. Racism. Nazism. White supremacy. I mean, everyone’s a white supremacist if they disagree with critical race theory. And so, I think to some degree, words don’t have any meaning anymore. People … I mean, it doesn’t care. I was telling my 14-year-old son, “When I was in college, in my early career, if someone had called me a racist, if someone had called me that, I would’ve been so unbelievably horrified because I think people didn’t throw it around as much. I could be wrong. Maybe they were throwing it around too much then, but I don’t think so. And, I mean, the weight of that word, the weight of that accusation was so heavy. Whereas now, it’s like, gosh, spend an hour on Twitter.
Ali:
They call everybody-
Julie Gunlock:
You’ll be called a racist seven times. It just doesn’t mean anything anymore, and yet there is such fear from people, and, again, as you say, losing your job-
Ali:
Yeah. By being labeled.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes. I know people from real estate agents to insurance agents that to other people that are kind of in one of those service industries where they rely on … It’s like a sales kind of thing. They really have to be careful about this stuff. But this is what I think. Look. I understand the silence. But this silence and this intimidation and this sense that you can’t even talk about something, and yet you’re supposed to send your kids to a school where they openly talk about this stuff, about things that are really dangerous and really make children feel bad about their existence and the color of their skin. This is going to drive more people to pods, to homeschooling, to microschools, to virtual schools.
One thing that I think has gotten a really bad name in this pandemic state that we’re in is because public schools have … I mean, not all of them. My public school has done a horrible job of virtual learning. It’s all videos. It’s all go do this. Go play this math game. It’s horrible. My son has to navigate through … I counted it once. It was like he had to click 13 times in order to turn in a project, which, again, was done entirely online.
But there actually are some online schools that are really good. I mentioned Memoria Press. Memoria Press has some online classes that are really well done. The teacher is interactive with the kids and walks them through assignments and really never leaves the online classroom. Whereas, my child is put in his own Zoom room like every 10 minutes. He’s sitting there by himself. So what we’re seeing out there, this really is a revolution. People are going to start to say, “I want to do this on my own.” And for people like you and me who have the finances to do this, there are people that don’t, that are going to start demanding more choice. I think we’re going to see some real exciting things happening in the educational space in the next couple years. I really hope so.
Ali:
I can’t understand … I mean, and maybe you know, but the argument against school choice? I’m like-
Julie Gunlock:
I know.
Ali:
I feel like everybody should have those opportunities. If the money followed the kid, then it gives, I mean, competition in the marketplace. Private schools are like, “I have to open or we’ll close.” There’s some-
Julie Gunlock:
Right. We have to attract. We have to offer things.
Ali:
… necessity.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes. What’s so interesting about the argument against, when they say, “Well, if you give the money to families instead of institutions, which is the whole school choice argument, then you’ll rob public schools of their funding. I love this line of questioning because then you go, “Why? Why? Why would it rob?” And the person has to say, “Well, because people will leave.”
Ali:
If they’re doing a good job, they’ll go.
Julie Gunlock:
But then you say, “But why will they leave?” I mean, the only reason people would leave a public school is because it’s not performing well, just like any other business. If I go to a store and I don’t like the service I’m getting, I don’t go back to that store. So I love that argument because it always shows that what they don’t want is competition. The public schools want the money so that they … It’s a guarantee that people cannot leave. And what’s so horrible is nobody is trapped in public schools except people who can’t afford to get out. Those are the most vulnerable kids. The ones that, ostensibly, these liberals are saying they care about. So it is really galling.
Ali:
I know.
Julie Gunlock:
I really think that stories like yours, Ali, are going to encourage more people to leave, and hopefully will encourage more people to see that we need to give people choice in the marketplace when it comes to education.
Ali:
Yeah. Amen.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, listen, I feel like that was a little Tuttle Twin ending there. Ali, you are just a great guest, and I’m really thrilled that you came on to talk about I think what’s a really exciting time probably in both of our lives, and real benefit to your kids. Thanks so much for coming on.
Ali:
Thanks again for having me.
Julie Gunlock:
I love these stories. I love all of these stories about what people have done creatively in this really difficult time. I think the shutdowns and COVID have been a very difficult time for people. But out of it has come some really inspiring stories of people taking control of their children’s education and finding creative ways to keep their kids going. Ali’s story is certainly an inspiration. Ali’s pandemic learning story can be found at IWF.org, so check that out if you want to read more about what she has done to ensure her children are doing well during the school shutdowns.
Thanks, everyone, for being here for another episode of The Bespoke Parenting Hour. If you enjoyed this episode or liked the podcast in general, please leave a rating or a view on iTunes. This helps ensure that the podcast reaches as many listeners as possible. If you haven’t subscribed to The Bespoke Parenting Hour on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, please do so, so you won’t miss an episode. Don’t forget to share this episode and let your friends know that they can get Bespoke episodes on their favorite podcast app. From all of us here at the Independent Women’s Forum, thanks for listening.