On this week’s Bespoke Parenting Hour, host Julie Gunlock talks to Congresswoman Cathy McMorris Rodgers about kids and technology, her efforts to explore and expose how Big Tech is affecting children’s mental and emotional wellbeing, and the launch of her new Big Tech Accountability Platform which seeks greater transparency and accountability from Big Tech companies. Julie and the congresswoman also discuss their shared experience as mothers of special needs kids, school closures, and how Congress can (and should!) do more to help special needs kids succeed in the public school setting.
TRANSCRIPT
Julie Gunlock:
Hey everyone. I’m Julie Gunlock, host of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to the program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom-tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families, themselves, and most importantly, their kids. When it comes to using social media, specifically kids using social media, parenting style is an important question. Is making sure kids are kept safe from some of the harmful effects of social media simply a matter of parent involvement and parent-established limits? What responsibilities do tech companies have to children? These companies certainly pretend that they care. They say they put in measures to curtail bullying and other problems, and yet there’s a growing body of evidence, a really concerning body of evidence that shows that these platforms are really quite harmful to young people.
What role does the government have or should the government have any role in protecting kids against what some people call predatory behaviors of some of these companies and the addictiveness of some of these platforms, particularly on young minds? Here to talk to me today about all of this and a few other topics is Congresswoman Cathy McMorris Rodgers. Rodgers represents the fifth district of Washington State. She is the top Republican on the House Energy and Commerce Committee. She is the 200th woman to serve in the U.S. House of Representatives. I love this. She is the first woman to have given birth three times while serving in Congress. Cathy is an ability advocate for her son Cole, who has down syndrome. She also has two daughters, Grace and Brynn. Such pretty names. Earlier this year, the congresswoman launched the Big Tech Accountability Platform to explore and expose how she says social media and tech companies are hurting children.
How these platforms contribute to suicides and anxiety, how tech companies use algorithms to drive addiction, and she wants to explore the role tech companies play in child grooming and trafficking. In a recent hearing with Big Tech CEOs, the congresswoman said Big Tech was her biggest fear as a parent. Adding, “I have two daughters and a son with a disability. Let me be clear. I do not want you defining what is true for them. I do not want their future manipulated by your algorithms. I do not want their self-worth defined by the engagement tools you’ve built to own their attention. I do not want them to be in danger from what you’ve created.” That is pretty powerful stuff. I guess that’s a pretty good setup for my first question, congresswoman, but first, thanks so much for coming on.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
Great. Thank you so much, Julie. I’m thrilled to be able to join you today.
Julie Gunlock:
Thank you. I think the first thing, I mean, you really spoke your mind at that hearing. You were talking, I think voicing the concerns of so many parents out there, so many moms out there who are worried about Big Tech’s effect on children. What we’re seeing out there, the studies are showing that kids are dealing with higher rates of depression and anxiety. There are higher rates of suicide. Why should parents, why do they need to be concerned about Big Tech and Big Tech’s effect on children?
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
It’s a great question. I can tell you that in my household, I have two daughters and a son with a disability that my husband and I, we are fighting the Big Tech battles every day. It has become my biggest fear as a parent, because what I see is that it is a battle for their development. It’s a battle for the mental health. It’s ultimately a battle for their safety. I know that I’m not alone. I know that I speak for millions of moms and parents across this country. In Spokane, we recently, we’ve been seeing an increase in teenage suicide in our high… As I’ve reached out to the schools and sort of asking some questions, what’s going on with our kids? What’s making them feel so alone and depressed and anxious?
What I hear over and over, whether it’s the administrators, the principals, the students themselves, teachers, is that they’re raising the alarm bell on social media. We know there are a number of studies that are highlighting the fact that if our children are more likely to spend time on social media, if they spend four to six hours a day, that they’re more likely to have suicidal tendencies. There’s several studies that have been released in recent years that are highlighting these facts about the studies. The Big Tech needs to be held accountable.
Julie Gunlock:
Right. I totally agree with you. I do feel like people are really starting to get worried about this much more. I feel like it’s certainly since the COVID shutdowns, since kids are at home so much more, probably have access to these computers and these platforms. But you know, you hear people say that parents need to have a greater role, right? I’m sympathetic to that argument. Parents should be more present is what I hear a lot. But I do think that some parents don’t really know what’s going on and how these companies are attracting kids and essentially addicting them to their platforms. You talk about, in that incredible quote that I read right before you came on, you’re talking about manipulating them, algorithms, defining their self-worth. I mean, talk to me a little bit, how are these Big Tech companies working?
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
Well, yes. As a parent, I would just say, right now, it’s not a fair fight. Even [inaudible 00:06:14], they could change the settings even at the beginning, but yet Big Tech is choosing through their algorithms, through their business models. Their goal is to keep our children on their devices as long as they can. They design their products to make sure that the user is hooked and is increasing their screen time. What we need is for Big Tech to be transparent, and right now they are not being transparent. They know, they know, people like Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, they limit their own children’s use with technology. They have admitted that. And yet right now they want to dismiss the concerns and the impact of their products on children and on our children’s wellbeing.
We need parents to be able to make informed decisions. That’s why I feel like right now, it’s not a fair fight for our parents. That’s why we are working, demanding more transparency. As I mentioned, there’s a number of studies that have shown that if teens, if young adults spend more time on these social media platforms, that it absolutely impacts their wellbeing. They’re less happy. They have more feelings of loneliness and isolation, more depression. That’s what we need to make sure that we’re addressing right now. It has been heightened with COVID.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, I will tell you, and I want to pivot over to COVID in a little bit, but it’s interesting. One thing that I have to say kind of scared me is in that hearing, you asked them for more information. I believe you followed up and they still haven’t given you some of the information that you asked for, is that correct?
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
It is correct. They’ve given us the high level responses, but they have not answered these questions directly. We’re not going to stop pursuing this. I can assure you.
Julie Gunlock:
I’m so grateful.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
Yes. I just think we have to keep the pressure on. This is about our kids. This is about the safety and wellbeing of our children. I’m also really concerned about the priorities of these companies, because instead of working to really address these obvious harm—and there’s the impact on their mental health, but also we are seeing child trafficking, child pornography, illegal drug sales on these platforms—Big Tech seems to be focusing more on silencing conservatives and speech that doesn’t fit their liberal orthodoxy. Right?
Julie Gunlock:
Yes.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
As a Republican, as a conservative, I’m very concerned about their priorities.
Julie Gunlock:
I said I’m so grateful. Part of the reason I am is it is sort of terrifying when you think that if a powerful, your powerful committee can’t get answers out of Big Tech, you think of what like the average parent like me who doesn’t have really any power to get these people to pay attention to me. That little nugget of information is really important for parents to understand that you have powerful people in Washington advocating for you, and they can’t even get full transparency on these questions. These are questions not about proprietary information. This is about how their product is harming kids. Again, we have some data on that that is pretty compelling. I think that that to me is something that parents really need to take away from this, is the fact that it is really hard to get information out of these companies.
I am so grateful that there are people like you that are, and as you say, you’re not backing down, so that is a relief for parents to know. But I think one other thing to keep in mind, oh, I’m so sorry. Go ahead.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
Well, I was just going to say, we are not satisfied with what we’ve received and we’re going to stay on them. But I really appreciate the work that you’re doing, Julie, to help inform parents, moms, equip them. Part of our goal must be to raise up that army of moms and parents across this country that helps demand that Big Tech be held accountable.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, you know, it’s interesting too, and I think I’ve heard you talk about this as well. These companies are deploying more and more programs aimed at kids. Instagram has an app for children under 13. My children are constantly getting… It’s funny, not my children. I’m getting invitations for a Facebook app for kids that I keep rejecting. It is interesting that there is more and more of this, so at a younger age, sort of normalizing this idea of being on social media where my personal parenting strategy is… I shouldn’t say this because, I hope they don’t find out, but I’ve told them that it’s illegal to be on social media. I’ve said that, oh, no, it’s not me. It’s the rules. Right. My kids don’t have any desire. Although I do have a 14 year old who I can see some of his friends, they all have phones, my child doesn’t. I really work very, very hard to keep them away from these things. But again, these companies are deploying more and more of these programs.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
It’s very common now. They say on average that eight to 12 year olds are spending between four and six hours a day on these devices. With teens, it’s up to nine hours a day. What you find is that our own children are with other kids that do have these devices and that are spending a lot of time on these sites and are being accorded all the time to spend more time. Unfortunately, it is having a negative impact. The studies are backing it up.
Julie Gunlock:
You know, I wanted to pivot just a teeny bit, not quite to talking about school shutdowns and COVID, but I want to talk a little bit about schools. I wrote about this a couple of months ago about when my children’s school went fully virtual. It was a struggle for me to put limits on when they’re going to school and staring at a computer all day. But I understood, that was in the spring. That was when schools had just shut down. But that’s not just COVID reality. Schools are now super high-tech. Most schools hand out Chromebooks, kids aren’t even seeing textbooks anymore. Even in class work, which used to be done on a worksheet with a pencil is now computer-based, at least in my children’s school and it’s very frustrating.
My kid goes off to school and he’s on a screen the whole day and it’s normalizing it for him. Then he comes home and all he hears me doing is screeching about getting off the computer. I said once in my article, I said, I feel like I’m sharing custody with someone who doesn’t share my parenting philosophy, right? Because they go off for eight hours a day and it’s a screen time bonanza. Then they come home and it’s super limits. Why has schools become so tech heavy? Is it investments by Google’s, investments by these Big Tech companies that has caused schools to shift from classic education and from hard textbooks and workbooks entirely to the Chromebook high tech education? Why is that?
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
Right. Well, then I think that is a great question. I’ve had a similar experience. Our son is in a public charter school here in Spokane. It is true that, during COVID, it’s only increased dramatically. It’s increased dramatically the amount of time that he is in front of a screen. Even when he has been in school, when it was hybrid two days a week, and now just recently is now four days a week. I do hear that he’s spending a lot of time on the screen. Our son has a disability. On one hand, I thought, well, okay, part of this is more individualized learning, right. I think that there is an aspect of that that can be positive for the child. But what I’m seeing is that it just seems like across the board, it is just the shift to the screen times and it’s not always even educational, right? I’m like, you seem to be watching a lot of movies now at school. Right?
I really liked the model where it’s not, I want… I think every child learns differently and we need to be aware of that. I think there can be a role for the computer in the school that is helping reinforce maybe material or take a test and see if the individual is actually learning the material. But I too am concerned about how much of it is just putting the child in front of a screen rather than really focused on making sure that our kids are getting the best education possible and that we are ensuring that they are reaching their full potential. And that it is a partnership between the schools and the parents.
Julie Gunlock:
Yeah. Well, partnership between the schools and the parents. That’s a whole another podcast as I like to say, because that seems to be a really big problem too. Because oftentimes, when you raise these concerns about tech, they kind of look at you like you’re a Luddite, right? Like you don’t want your kid to ever get a computer. I’ve been accused sort of when I’ve complained to my school district, I was not happy with some of the intense computer learning profiles that they were doing in my child’s school. I said, look, there’s no reason that he has to do every single math assignment on a computer. Could you hand him a worksheet and a pencil? I’ve also read studies that show that kids do better when they write things down. Memorization, it helps them memorize things, particularly things like grammar rules, you know?
I was treated like my child is going to be left in the 18th century. Right? Like, oh, it’s one of those. They probably thought I make my own bread too and drink kombucha and don’t want any high-tech things in my house. I was like, no, I’m fine with computers. I think what you said is so important is that there is a place for computers and technology and to get kids used to that. I mean, again, we’re living in the here and now, but I do think that there is a place to return. Even my child, when he reads a book in class, it’s a computer program. He loads the book he wants to read. I’m like, why can’t they just go to the library? I don’t understand that. I think that is a problem. I think that’s part of this. This is why kids are easily addicted to this stuff, because there are authorities in their life telling them that being on a computer for eight hours in a day is normal.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
Right. As I’m listening, I’m thinking, and what do kids want more than anything? They want your attention. They want time. Here we are putting a computer in front of them, eight, nine hours a day. Right. The model that I’ve really liked is called blended learning, where they spend a third of the class actually with the teacher, and then a third of the time in small groups that are discussing the lesson. Then a third of the time on the computer, maybe reinforcing or taking the test, but it’s blended where they’re getting that human interaction. They’re hearing from their teacher at different times, but they’re also learning as a team. There’s so much that we’re learning from the last 14 months in particular and the impact of a pandemic and the shutdowns and isolation.
But one is the importance of human interaction, especially in our kids, that they need that. They crave it. If they aren’t getting it, then it leads to other challenges. Right? I believe that that is part of why the mental health numbers are just surging right now. It’s heartbreaking, the number of kids that are in crisis, that are depressed or anxious, that are coming to school now and discussing what depressants they’re on.
Julie Gunlock:
Oh yeah.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
It’s so sad.
Julie Gunlock:
Honestly, I could talk to you about the tech stuff for another hour, but I know your time is limited. But I do want to talk to you a little bit, pivoting a little bit to special needs children. You are a devoted and fierce champion for the, I like how you call it, the ability community. You are a special needs mom, and I am too. I have a child with some pretty complicated, special educational needs. Those needs were not being met by our communities public school. I’ve been homeschooling my son for this past year. It’s been an incredible experience, very rewarding. He’s done incredibly well. But I can’t help but get a little angry, congresswoman, when I think about the fact that for the 10 years he was in the public school, that school district that I sent him to got 32,000 a year for him.
We struggled every single day to get him the services we need. I struggled every single day to get the respect that I feel like every special needs parent deserves. I struggled to be heard. We know that this is true of so many special needs parents across the country, particularly during this pandemic, special needs kids have really suffered the most. Finally to my question, sorry for that large lead in. But you know, it’s been decades since the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, IDEA became law. This law is supposed to guarantee, it’s a federal guarantee that special needs kids will get an education. I think most parents would say it isn’t working. I’d love to get your opinion on this. Maybe you could give some, I don’t know, maybe tell us if congress can do anything to help or plans to do anything to help.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
Yes. Well, I appreciate you sharing your story. I join with you and I am a proud member of the disabilities community now. Cole, our 14 year old, has been in public school and has received a lot of help along the way. IDEA, I’m grateful for IDEA, that now give their children an opportunity to learn and to get an education. But I agree that it needs to be updated. It was passed in the [inaudible 00:20:59] and it needs to be updated. I also am looking at legislation that would make clear that the money would follow the students so that if you’re an individual, if your child has a disability that no matter what school that child decides to attend. As soon as they turn three, they qualify for schooling.
I believe that parents need to be empowered to make a decision as to what school is going to be best for their child. We’re looking at that legislation. For COVID in particular, over the last 14 months, I’ve heard from so many families who have children with disabilities that have been, especially, it’s been an especially challenging time for them. There’s a bipartisan group of members on Capitol Hill that is calling for an investigation as to the impact of the school closures for children with disabilities. That we really need to get some questions answered as to the impact of remote and virtual learning, and whether or not kids with disabilities were discriminated against. But also, how they were cut off from support system, from the therapies that they need and the impact of isolation and being at home rather than actually getting the support that they needed during this time.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, I pulled my child out in the fall of last year because I knew, because we had that small testing period from March until the end of the year. I could tell it was not working for him, so we pulled out of the public schools. Again, I said I’ve been homeschooling, but I sort of watched what’s been happening. I have friends in this community that their children are still going to my local public school. What I think was so upsetting to me is that my local public school has a program called citywide. I don’t know why it’s called citywide. It’s for children who have the most severe disabilities. They might be blind. They may have some medical reason that they can’t be in a room with other children, medically fragile. Down syndrome children are sometimes put in the citywide program for specialized instruction, but they have usually the most difficult cases.
There’s only of the K through five grade levels, there’s only about 150 of them in the entire city, my entire city. My city refused even to bring that small cohort back. We’re telling a blind child to sit on a screen, or a child with hearing loss to do virtual. I mean, these are the kinds of stories that I really think do need investigation, because again, we know that they… Look, I think there’s a lot of sympathy when it first hit the schools for shutdown, but by fall of 2020, certainly some accommodations could have been made for children who desperately need in-person. I really am happy to hear that congress is interested in looking into this because who knows if this is going to happen again. But we do need to better care for our most vulnerable students. Again, schools are getting a ton of money to care for these students. It’s not like they’re getting, here’s a thousand bucks. I mean, my child was worth $32,000. I really do hope that congress looks into this. I’m glad to hear that that is a possibility.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
Absolutely. There’s too many examples where it felt like the school turned their back on our kids. The stories that you’re just sharing, they just reinforced that remote, the virtual learning, it absolutely discriminated against some of our children, the disabilities education act.
Julie Gunlock:
I think that it’s interesting because I’ve heard you say, earlier you said, every child learns differently. I love that you’ve got a bill where the money would follow the student. All of this is pointing to the need for school choice. I obviously think you support fully full choice. It’s interesting how this shutdown and the pandemic has really, I think, put into sharp relief the need, the desperate need for parents to have more choices. And yet, I’m part of a disability community here in my town where parents of special needs children talk online and sort of a community advocating for each other. But I don’t see the school choice thing really raised much. I’m careful. I don’t want to be like the crazy pro-school choice person on the boards. But I do wonder if people in the disability community, they aren’t really vocal on that, and maybe I’m wrong. Am I wrong on that? What’s the connection there? Can you tell me about that?
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
Well, that’s a great question. I think that COVID has really pulled the curtain back and allowed us to look into our children’s classrooms and see more clearly what is being taught as well as what the commitment is of the school to our children’s education. For a period of time, we had our kids in Washington, D.C. It’s interesting, Washington, D.C. several years ago, it was back in the ’90s actually that there was a huge educational reform put in place in Washington, D.C. It included the opportunity scholarships, but also, today in Washington, D.C., 50% of the kids attend a charter school. There’s lots different choices. As a parent, I was amazed, the choices that were available. This school where there’s 95% of the kids, St. Coletta is 95% of the kids are children with disabilities and they’re more severe.
If that’s what you think is the best learning environment for your child, that’s an option for you. There’s others where it’s 50. For example, there were some that were just a 5% special needs, but just a lot of different choices. There were ones that were more focused on math and science and technology. Anyway, as a parent, you could opt. You could apply for any school that you wanted to attend. You are responsible for the transportation. If it was public, it was private, if it was a charter school, you could opt-in to that school. I’m always kind of puzzled as to why more people aren’t aware first and foremost that in our nation’s capital that is available for our kids, and the opportunity scholarships used to be a part of that.
The Obama administration, they were taken away. Especially African-American parents were up in arms that the opportunity scholarship was taken away. The parents in D.C., they cherish having that option. If your child is in a school that is not meeting your child’s needs, then you can, it’s a lottery every year, right? You apply. You have that ability to apply to a different school and see if it’s a better fit. It absolutely has just positively impacted the outcomes among kids that otherwise may have been left behind.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, I think you’ve really nailed it there when you say a lot of parents may not be aware of these opportunities. Once they experience it though, or get a hint that this is a possibility, then there is such love of having that flexibility. I think one thing that you’re doing that is so important is helping to educate parents like me. I, again, I have a special needs child and I struggle. I’ve always struggled in my local community, but through the help of friends and through the help of people, other people who talk to me about homeschooling, I made a better decision for my child. I think really it’s a matter of getting the word out that there are proposals out there like yours where money could follow the student.
When you say money, I mean, it’s a lot of money. What could you do with that money if you had the choice to pick a school that’s best for your child? The possibilities are really exciting. I really appreciate you obviously looking into that and introducing a bill to do that, that’s a really exciting thing. I really appreciate all that you’ve done looking out for our kids from the Big Tech companies and everything else that you’re doing to improve the country, to improve the nation.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
Well, thank you. Thanks for helping get the word out. It’s been great to be with you today. This is one of those moments I think when we get to reassess coming out of COVID, my hope is that this will be a new era and that we’ve all learned a ton. That it will not be business as usual, but that we will be able to apply what we’ve learned and really make sure that, especially in this case, our kids are getting the best education possible and that we are also holding Big Tech accountable. We’ve learned a lot about Big Tech during COVID and we need to make some changes.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, listen, we really are in agreement on this. This podcast and IWF really wants to help and get the word out as well. We hope you’ll come back. I hope you’ll come back and talk to me as this develops, and as this goes on. I really want to thank you for speaking on behalf of a lot of parents who are concerned of this stuff, and speaking to some pretty powerful people about the need for true transparency and more information about how these platforms affect children. Of course, thank you for all that you’ve done on behalf of special needs kids. You’ve just been a real hero of mine personally. It’s great to talk to you about these important issues.
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers:
It’s great to be with you and look forward to working with you. This is all important for our children and their futures.
Julie Gunlock:
It was great to talk to the congresswoman. This podcast will continue to talk to her and to continue to follow her efforts with keeping Big Tech accountable. I think it’s important also to say here that look, I do truly believe parents have an important role here. But I also think that the tech companies need to be transparent, need to give information about their programs and how they might affect people. That is what the congresswoman is asking for. If they’re not going to provide that information, then it really does go beyond a parent’s ability to help their children develop healthy habits. I do think that we need to consider this sort of out of the realm of just a parent’s responsibility. I often say, and I’ve written endlessly about if you don’t like what your children are watching, turn the TV off.
But one thing that has been interesting is it’s not the same with these platforms. I’ll give you an example. My son is 14. I don’t want him to have a phone, but I do want him, for instance, he does some stuff. I don’t want to talk too specifically about my children on this podcast, but one of my children does do some work. He has a place he has to be every week. He’s slightly far away and I want him to be able to contact us so we ended up buying a wrist phone. The wrist phone, it’s just little. If you wear it, it looks like an iPhone. All it does is call. In fact, it only can call four numbers. It’s becoming less useful because sometimes he might need a map or look at the weather or some other things that would be helpful to him.
There’s really nothing out there except for these really sophisticated smartphones. It’s not like you can get a limited plan. It’s really impossible. There just really aren’t those products out there. It makes it hard as a parent to limit their ability to see certain things when you don’t have that kind of control. There are some other controls, parental controls that can be put on some technologies, but those things are easily overridden. Anyway, the point is, is that these are very powerful companies and parents do have a role, but I think it really is important. I think it’s important from a regulatory state that we know that congress have some idea of how these platforms are developed and how they do impact the wellbeing of children. I think that is a completely reasonable thing to ask for.
Again, as the congresswoman detailed on the podcast, they are not being transparent. They are not giving all of the information that has been requested, so that’s a problem as well. If she can’t get it, if a powerful congresswoman who’s the chair of a powerful house committee can’t get it, how are you going to get it? I think that is something that parents really need to be aware of. I think as a parent, I’m really thankful that the congresswoman is up there on Capitol Hill advocating for parents like me who are concerned. Thanks everyone for being here for another episode of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. If you enjoyed this episode or like the podcast in general, please leave a rating or review on iTunes. This helps ensure that the podcast reaches as many listeners as possible. If you haven’t subscribed to the Bespoke Parenting Hour on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, please do so, so you won’t miss an episode. Don’t forget to share this episode and let your friends know that they can get Bespoke episodes on their favorite podcast app. From all of us here at the Independent Women’s Forum, thanks for listening.