Tucker Carlson, host of Fox News’ Tucker Carlson Tonight and Fox Nation’s Tucker Carlson Today, joins the podcast this week to talk about a wide variety of topics, including the censorship of Big Tech; the Biden Administration’s fight against what they think is the biggest threat to the U.S. today, white supremacy; his recent claim that the NSA is spying on him and trying to cancel his show; and his new book The Long Side: Thirty Years in American Journalism.
Tucker Carlson is the host of Fox News Channel’s Tucker Carlson Tonight and the host of Fox Nation’s Tucker Carlson Today. On his program each night, Carlson features powerful analysis and spirited debates with guests from across the political and cultural spectrum. Bringing his signature style to tackle issues largely uncovered by the media, Carlson challenges political correctness and media bias with segments like “Campus Craziness” and “TwitterStorm.”
TRANSCRIPT
Beverly Hallberg:
Welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg. And on today’s episode, I’m thrilled that Tucker Carlson, host of Fox News’ Tucker Carlson Tonight and Fox Nation’s Tucker Carlson Today, is joining us. We’re going to talk about a wide variety of topics, including the ever-growing grasp of Big Tech, his claim that the Biden NSA is spying on him and trying to cancel his show, and I’ll ask him about his new book, The Long Side: 30 Years in American Journalism. Tucker, thank you so much for joining She Thinks.
Tucker Carlson:
Oh, it’s an honor to be here. Thanks for having me, Beverly.
Beverly Hallberg:
I actually want to start with your book. You have a new book coming out on August 10th. For those interested, they can go ahead and pre-order that. It is called The Long Side: 30 Years in American Journalism. I just wanted to know, how has journalism changed in the three decades that you’ve been working in it?
Tucker Carlson:
Well, it’s funny. That’s what the book is about. It’s primarily a collection of magazine stories over 30 years, but as I put it together, my publisher Simon & Schuster canceled a book by Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri on January 7th, the day after the deadly White supremacist, Q-Anon insurrection, where senior citizens with signs tried to overthrow the government. And he had voted to not certified the election because he wanted more information on it, he felt it wasn’t settled. And Simon & Schuster declared him a domestic terrorist and canceled this book. And I was shocked by this considering that Democrats in the last several elections have cast identical votes and faced no sanction from Simon & Schuster. So I basically reported out what happened and I had a long conversation with the head of the company and the editor of Simon & Schuster and asked their reasoning, “Why are you silencing Josh Hawley?” And basically they admitted, “Because prominent Democrats have demanded that we do that.”
And so the book is a collection, but it’s also an examination of censorship in the American publishing business. Now, Simon & Schuster is still publishing the book. I feel like, I don’t think they think they have much of a choice. I think they’re pretty unhappy about it. But it was interesting as hell to report it out and to hear from them, and they basically just said, “Yeah, I mean, when someone gets really unpopular with Democratic leaders, we have to silence them.” And they in effect admitted that. They wouldn’t put it in those terms, but that’s what they said. I thought it was scary as hell.
Beverly Hallberg:
Yeah, I think it is too, and I think something else that is scary is we’ve even heard the President of the United States claim recently that the most pressing threat against the United States is White supremacy. Is this the new narrative of the Left including in publishing, including in politics, that they think that the majority of Americans are White supremacists?
Tucker Carlson:
I mean, look, as a factual matter, it’s a lie. The FBI, DOJ keeps statistics on this. You’re more likely to be killed by lightning. Many more Americans every year are killed by lightning than killed by White supremacists. So it’s not only the main threat we face, it’s not even in the top 10. It’s not even on the list. There is no meaningful threat to the existence of the United States from White supremacy. That’s just a flat-out lie. Why are they saying it? They’re saying it because they’re reorienting the war on terror and they’re focusing on American citizens, on opponents of the regime, on people who didn’t vote for Joe Biden. So if you did vote for Biden or if they think you’re going to vote for Biden, you can burn Wendy’s to the ground and loot Macy’s and you’re a civil rights demonstrator and your looting is reparations.
But if you don’t vote for Biden, if you complain about election results, the FBI brings you in for questioning or throws you in solitary confinement, as many protesters from that day still are. So yeah, I mean, this is a terrifying assault on civil liberties. The Republican Party does nothing to protect its own voters from this, to their eternal shame, and it’s happening in front of us and nobody is saying so. But that’s exactly what’s happening. We should say something.
Beverly Hallberg:
Yeah. And as far as the state of journalism with all of this, do you think that journalism can return to a place where tolerance and diversity of thought is once again, not just celebrated, but just frankly allowed? Or do you think we’ve crossed a point of no return? Does your book get into that, whether or not we can turn the tide that is here?
Tucker Carlson:
Look, we need to understand that the movement that we’re looking at right now on the Left is totalitarian. No, I don’t think most Democrats are totalitarian. Most Democrats are just normal Americans who disagree with me, for example, which is totally fine. But the people in charge are totalitarian. They don’t want another side. They want total uniformity. They want everyone to read from the same hymnal, and at gunpoint, and they mean it. And so that’s not liberalism. I am a liberal in the most basic sense. I believe in diversity and diversity of views and of life experiences and of opinions. So they don’t believe that at all. And until we recognize that, that the conversation is just very different from the one that we had even 10 years ago, where we debate about how much money to spend on infrastructure or the military, or what tax rates ought to be.
That’s not the debate we’re having now. We’re having a debate about whether we continue with a free society or not. And I mean, I’m just a talk show host, I just watch and then say what I think about it. But people with actual power, say Mitch McConnell, the minority leader in the Senate, don’t seem to understand or care about what is actually happening. And that’s the most frustrating part because their job is to protect their voters. I mean, this is a representative democracy. They’re supposed to represent the people who voted for them and the people who didn’t, by the way, but they’re not. And so that’s my daily frustration. I mean, I don’t really understand why they’re refusing to rise to the defense of Americans.
Beverly Hallberg:
And something I think Americans are questioning among themselves is whether or not they should speak out. You talk about just being a talk show host, and you just say what you think, and you have plenty of criticism across the board against you. I think the question I have is, how do you personally handle that? I know even your wife went through a scary situation a couple of years ago where people came to your actual home. What is that like for you and what do you say to other Americans? Because I do think it’s going to require Americans standing up and speaking out, which we have seen when it comes to critical race theory and school boards. We are seeing parents speak out, but what encouragement do you give to them, because you deal with this on a day-to-day basis?
Tucker Carlson:
Well, I really don’t. I mean, I’ve never really been bothered by criticism from people I don’t respect. I mean, if I get home and my wife looks at me ensconced, I’m crushed by it. I really care what my wife thinks. I love my wife. I’ve been married for 30 years and her opinion is really important to me. If my children are mad at me, it’s devastating to me. If I have a rift with a friend or my brother, I mean, these are massive events in my life. But some New York Times columnist or some douche at the Washington Post doesn’t like me, why do I care? I mean, I honestly couldn’t be less interested in their opinion because I don’t respect them, and I mean it. And you often your conservatives say, “Oh, the New York Times is liberal and we shouldn’t care what they think,” but they really do care what they think and the second the New York Times calls them racist they do the bidding of the New York Times.
Why are you letting people of bad faith who hate you control your behavior and your attitudes? I think it’s just the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen. Decide whose opinions you care about, pay very close attention to those opinions, change your behavior accordingly, and then screen out everything else. Why are you giving emotional power to your enemies? Honestly, I think it’s bizarre. I don’t get it. And the racism thing is just a pure cudgel. Of course, they have zero interest in helping Black people. They run Detroit in Chicago, so the argument is settled at that point. If you run Chicago, you clearly don’t care about Black lives. Dozens of Black people were shot this weekend. We know that they don’t mean what they say, so why do we care what they say about us? And I really don’t, and I’m not just saying that. It’s not a pose. I’m not pretending, “Oh, I don’t care.” I really don’t care. Why would I?
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, it seems that it’s not just the New York Times that is coming after you. It is also the NSA, the National Security Agency. You made a recent claim on your show this week saying that the NSA is spying on you and trying to remove your show from air. You’ve went ahead and issued a FOIA request, a Freedom of Information Request, to try to get access to the records. Frankly, I doubt that will come soon if at all. So my question to you is, what proof do you have? I know this is a whistleblower that alerted you to this. Are we going to see that proof anytime soon?
Tucker Carlson:
Well, I think we already have, I mean, my statement, it wasn’t an allegation, it’s a fact, is that the NSA read my email. And I know that because I was told the contents of my private email by someone who did not receive the email. So, I mean, that’s a factual statement. They read my email. And they haven’t denied it. The Biden administration has not denied it. I mean, so their current line is, “Well, you must’ve been emailing someone bad or something.” Well, first of all, I can email any person I want. I’m an American citizen. If you think I committed a crime, charge me with a crime. Otherwise, buzz off and stay out of my email. It’s none of your business who I’m emailing, actually. I’m a 52-year-old man. I’m a taxpayer. I’m trying not to use the F word here, but that’s how I feel. What?
Beverly Hallberg:
Right.
Tucker Carlson:
I’m not fomenting revolution or committing a crime, and again, if you think I am, charge me. But they won’t. So yeah, they read my email and I think that’s an outrage.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, it’s illegal.
Tucker Carlson:
Nobody else is outraged by it. “Oh, well, that’s the way things work.” No, it’s not. It’s a crime. And even if you can find some legal justification that passes muster in court, if some judge signs off on it, it’s still indefensible. I’m an opposition journalist. I oppose the administration loudly every day and they’re reading my private email. And that’s not a problem for you. What kind of country do you want to live in anyway? And I think we know. They want to live in an authoritarian country where you don’t have a right to have private thoughts or express them to other people in email or verbally. I mean, of course, that’s the society they want. That’s the society they’re making. And I completely reject that. I don’t want my kids to live in that country, I don’t want to live there myself and I’m going to fight against it, period.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, I thought it was really interesting that they released a statement on Twitter saying that you have never been an intelligence target for them, they’ve never had any plans to try to take your program off the air, but then they didn’t allow people to reply, which is the whole point of putting something on Twitter.
Tucker Carlson:
Can I just say, I’ve never been an intelligence target. I mean, that’s a term of art, that’s specific to the so-called intel community, which by the way, is not a community. I’m from Washington. My dad worked for the federal government. I know how this works. This phrase, “intel community” is ridiculous. It’s not a community any more than there’s a Hispanic or Black or White community. These are individual agencies, just like these are individuals. So anyway, whatever, I hate that phrase, but that’s a specific term of art, which I’m not even going to get into it, but it doesn’t answer the question. So my question, and I posed this directly to NSA officials on the phone last night at 7:45 right before my show, “You’ve been reading my email. Are you denying that?” No, they did not deny it.
I said, “Here’s a straightforward question,” that’s what I said on the air, “did you read my email, my private email, without my permission, without a judge’s order?” “We can’t answer that.” “Oh, well, you did.” And they did. I mean, they’re effectively admitting that they didn’t, and as I said, I already know that they did. So I guess that’s okay with people. And I just want to say one more time, it’s not okay with me.
Beverly Hallberg:
Yeah.
Tucker Carlson:
And it shouldn’t be okay with anybody, and I intend to keep being noisy about it until… I don’t know until what, but I’m very offended by it.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, you should be. It’s illegal and I think it makes all Americans question whether or not they are going to be surveilled in such a way, or are they currently being surveilled in such a way? I think it’s concerning for a lot of people. I think a lot of people don’t trust institutions anymore. The FBI, the DOJ, the NSA, there are a lot of concerns. But before you go, I do want to turn our attention to a topic that you focus on often and that is the topic of Big Tech. I was hoping to just get a broad perspective from you on how Big Tech has played politics specifically during COVID. It’s been astonishing to me how they have censored people who have claimed that the lab leak theory is the likely origin, who were censored on their questioning the science behind school closures and mask-wearing, and even more recently, the censorship of those who question the vaccines.
I’ve been an outspoken critic of vaccines purely because I’ve had COVID and therefore I’m concerned about getting a vaccine, and also, I have an auto-immune disease and there hasn’t been enough research done on auto-immune disease. And I’ve gotten attacked for that, and that’s fine. But it just seems that Big Tech playing the arbiter of truth on what’s fact and fiction has gone to a new level, especially during COVID. Do you agree?
Tucker Carlson:
Yeah. Why is Pfizer in charge of our public conversation about science and health? I mean, we had Bret Weinstein on last night who is a former Evergreen professor, is a dyed-in-the-wool liberal. I mean, he’d probably take a bullet before he voted for Donald Trump. He’s no conservative, but he’s a scientist, and he made the point that Big Tech censorship of conversations about vaccines fits precisely with the agenda of big pharma. If you want to sell more vaccines, then you push a universal vaccination campaign for people who don’t need it. And by the way, I’m not against vaccines. I’ve had a lot of them, but there is no justification for forcing young people who are low risk already who’ve already been infected and recovered from COVID to get the vaccine. That’s insane, especially since it’s not even approved by the FDA. So why are they doing that is the question, and Weinstein’s guess, he said, “The only hypothesis that makes sense is that they’re carrying water for big pharma, which is terrifying.”
Pfizer shouldn’t be allowed to make our health policy. What is that? Should Ford Motor Company get to make our transportation policy? I mean, really? Should General Mills get to decide what you’re allowed to eat? I mean, I don’t even understand. It’s such a crazy place to be. The last thing I’ll say is, again, I grew up next to the Salk Institute and I’ve always been for vaccines. I’ve had a million. So have my kids. One of my kids is getting a meningitis vaccine next week. Great. I’m for it. I don’t think it is appropriate to force people to take any medicine, any vaccine. And I don’t even think it makes sense, if you’ve had the vaccine and you think vaccines are effective, and there’s a lot of questions of whether these vaccines are, but let’s say you believe they are, why do you care if other people get the vaccine? I don’t get that. You’re protected. Isn’t it, my body, my choice? It’s not.
And so I hope that there is an uprising against this. I think it’s really important as a medical issue. I think they’re forcing people to do things that are potentially dangerous, but also as a philosophical matter. If they can make you take a medicine you don’t want and don’t need, what can’t they make you do? Seriously.
Beverly Hallberg:
Yeah. And I think it’s quite astonishing that even the idea of just having dialogue about potential side effects has been silenced. You’re not even allowed to discuss that. It’s quite astonishing.
Tucker Carlson:
How many people have died from the COVID vaccines, and why don’t I have a right to know that?
Beverly Hallberg:
Right.
Tucker Carlson:
I mean, the [inaudible 00:16:01] system says thousands have died, many thousands have died. Is that true? Is someone trying to figure it out? I mean, all medicines come with a potential downside. Advil kills people. I mean, all medicines, because everything in life has a downside. So what’s the downside to the COVID vaccines and why can’t we have that conversation? This is freaking scary, man, we can’t talk about that.
Beverly Hallberg:
Yeah. It’s basic risk assessment for people based on their health, and we’re not allowed to do that right now. Final question for you. I only have a couple of minutes with you. I’m going to play devil’s advocate just really briefly.
Tucker Carlson:
Please do.
Beverly Hallberg:
For those who agree with you, that Big Tech does target conservatives but have a perspective that these aren’t monopolies and as long as the free market is at play you let these businesses operate as they choose, essentially those who don’t see more government involvement as the answer, what do you say to them? Two minutes.
Tucker Carlson:
I think libertarian orthodoxy falls apart in the face of reality almost every single time. You may be pro-choice on drugs, but if you’ve ever known someone addicted to heroin, it eliminates free will. It’s bad. You don’t want more heroin in your society. You can say, “Oh, build your own Google.” No, these are literally monopolies. Google is a search company. All the other stuff, that’s where all the money comes from, that’s where its market dominance is. It’s a search company and they’ve got over 90% of searches. It’s a classic monopoly. It stifles innovation. It stifles markets. I mean, one of the reasons we’re getting socialism is because market capitalism has been completely discredited by the monopolies. So all the geniuses at Quito or AEI or these stupid overfunded think-tanks that do nothing other than rot America, in my opinion, and I’ve worked there so I know, they have done more to bring us socialism than Antifa has, as far as I’m concerned, because they’re a system that is self-discrediting.
There’s nothing free about our markets. It’s rigged obviously, and so if you care about market capitalism, if you like our system, then you’d want to reform it so we can preserve it, as Teddy Roosevelt did. But they’re too shortsighted and dumb for that, unfortunately.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, I so appreciate that you always speak your mind, and I think there’s something that we can all learn from not being afraid of what people say about you. Say what you think. Get it out there. You do that every night on your show on Tucker Carlson Tonight, and I want to encourage people once again to get the book. It comes out August 10th. The Long Side: 30 Years in American Journalism. Tucker Carlson, thank you so much for joining She Thinks.
Tucker Carlson:
Oh man, thank you for having me, Beverly. I really appreciate it.
Beverly Hallberg:
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