Patrice Onwuka joins the podcast to discuss this month’s policy focus: Stopping the Epidemic of Violence in American Cities. We discuss the reasons why several U.S. cities watched murders spike by over 30 percent as well as outline the steps we can take to curb the nationwide violence.

Patrice is a political commentator and director of the Center for Economic Opportunity at Independent Women’s Forum. Patrice is also a senior fellow with The Philanthropy Roundtable and a Tony Blankley Fellow at The Steamboat Institute. She has worked in policy, advocacy, and communications roles in Washington, D.C. for more than a decade on issues related to the economy, employment, technology, and the criminal justice system. Prior to moving to Washington, Patrice served as a speechwriter for a United Nations spokesman.


TRANSCRIPT

Beverly Hallberg:

And welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg. And on today’s episode, we focus on IWF policy focus: Stopping the Epidemic of Violence in American Cities. We’ll get into the reasons why many U.S. cities saw murder spike by over 30% and outline the steps we can take to curb the nationwide violence. Joining us to discuss it is Patrice Onwuka. She is a political commentator and Director at the Center for Economic Opportunity right here at Independent Women’s Forum. Patrice is also a senior fellow with the Philanthropy Roundtable and a Tony Blankley Fellow at the Steamboat Institute. She has worked in policy, advocacy, and communications roles in Washington, DC for more than a decade. And prior to moving to Washington, Patrice served as a speechwriter for a United Nations spokesman. Patrice, always a pleasure to have you on She Thinks.

Patrice Onwuka:

Thank you so much, Beverly. I love joining to talk about good policy topics.

Beverly Hallberg:

And as I mentioned that we’re going to discuss this month’s policy focus. It’s called Stopping the Epidemic of Violence in American Cities. People can go online to iwf.org to download that. I encourage you to do it. But you’re going to outline it for us, Patrice. And I thought we would start with the big picture. So, as I mentioned, this month in this policy focus, you outlined that the murders have spiked by over 30% in this country. Can you break down the data for us a bit? Is this, for example, isolated to certain locations, or has this been a trend nationwide?

Patrice Onwuka:

So, Beverly, big picture: murders and serious crimes are rising across the country. The spike of nearly 30% was largely in large U.S. cities: New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, for example, in the list. But it wasn’t just in those specific urban areas; we’re talking about dramatic increases nationwide in places like Minneapolis, where you wouldn’t necessarily expect it. And so this is problematic. I mean, certainly these numbers are below the 1990s peak violent numbers that we saw, but for the people who are the victims of homicides, for the families who are left grieving, for the communities that find themselves increasingly more dangerous, these numbers mean diminished quality of life. And so that’s why it’s important that we have these conversations to understand what’s going on, maybe what’s going on, what’s driving it, and then what are some of the solutions that can get at these root problems?

Beverly Hallberg:

Yeah. And as we talk about what is actually driving it, just for clarity, you talked about the homicides, some murders, which have sadly increased. Where has violence across the board been, not just through 2020, but also to where we are in 2021? Are we talking about an uptick of violence in every single area? So not just the horrific, the homicides, but also when you think of more smaller crimes?

Patrice Onwuka:

Well, we certainly have seen that homicides are up 21% in these larger cities, but also, I think you’re seeing, in some mid-size cities, violent crimes increasing — particularly homicides — but other types of violent crimes going into 2021. So definitely homicides, but I do think some other, not quite murders, but certainly still violent crimes are rising.

Beverly Hallberg:

So let’s get into the reasons why, and you mentioned Minneapolis. And I think when people think of that, they think of the tragic death of George Floyd. That’s where we saw a lot of protest ignited in Minneapolis. And I think it also reminded us similarly to the death of Michael Brown in 2014 in Ferguson, Missouri. So would you say, would you pinpoint on that, that this is where we saw the start of it? Or are we talking about something that has started even before then?

Patrice Onwuka:

Well, interestingly, I do think that the murder of George Floyd certainly ignited both passions and tensions around racial issues in this country but also touched off a massive spike in violent crime. However, crime was rising before George Floyd was killed in May. In cities like Minneapolis, crime had been already on the rise. But what you saw after that event: citywide murders increased 71%. Shootings, carjackings, were up 300%. So it’s interesting because people say, “Well, obviously that event was what drove it.” But violence was actually rising before that. And then even after the protests and the kind of initial shock and disbelief of what happened with George Floyd passed, crime continued to rise. So some people have speculated, some analysts have speculated, “Well it’s because of the pandemic. It’s because people were holed up in their houses or they couldn’t find bread and couldn’t afford to buy bread and food.” But that even falls apart, that argument falls apart as well.

What we do think, and what some others would suggest — and a great example is over at the Manhattan Institute, Ms. Heather Mac Donald — she talks about something called the Ferguson effect, which is, in essence, after a very highly publicized murder of a black person occurs by a police officer, the narrative that the media runs with and activists run with is that this is an example of institutionalized racism in the police force. And that, because of that, this is an example of systemic racism nationwide, and it touches off protests and et cetera, et cetera. And, unfortunately, the narrative also weaves in this anti-cop rhetoric where black people, communities of color, are told to distrust police, to believe that every interaction with a police officer is going to leave any black person potentially dead, and then obviously then police officers are going to respond to that anti-police rhetoric by pulling back.

And so what we really actually may be seeing in terms of a rise of crime is when police officers pull back on policing, when the relationships between law enforcement and communities are so strained that they’re not interacting with one another, to either proactively identify bad people or proactively stop crime before it happens; and then, unfortunately, crime happens and you have other policy changes that could also affect it, but then it leads to a situation where we have today.

Beverly Hallberg:

And what I thought was so fascinating about the summer of 2020, which was when the defund the police movement really started, and you saw politicians sign on to that, you saw Joe Biden campaign on that, Democrats had to change their tune because it wasn’t popular among the American people. And I think that there’s a misperception, and correct me if I’m wrong on this, that there is a misperception to think that minority Americans, specifically black Americans, don’t want more policing. But doesn’t the data show something different that black Americans desire more policing. They want good policing, and they want a lot of it.

Patrice Onwuka:

The data absolutely does point to that. I mean, across the demographic, across demographics, you see that Americans want more cops, more people walking the beat in their neighborhoods. And that includes black people. And why? Because a police presence is a great deterrent to bad guys, to people who may want to commit crimes. And then, obviously, having police within a neighborhood, building those relationships with the local storekeepers and shop owners and the neighbors, they’re more willing to speak to a police officer when something happens, when a crime occurs, so that they can actually solve crimes that happen. It’s unfortunate that the Ferguson effect — and we’ve seen that happen after with George Floyd and, across the country, where that relationship between law enforcement and communities are so strained, but the communities actually want the police officers to be there.

Meanwhile, as you, Beverly, you rightly pointed out, there are a lot of lawmakers and politicians who think that chanting ‘defund the police’ is somehow going to make crime disappear or solve the problems in black and minority neighborhoods. And it doesn’t. It actually makes it worse. So to say that defunding the police is a bad policy solution, it’s a bad mantra. I mean, that’s an understatement. It actually is dangerous.

Beverly Hallberg:

And so what do you say to individuals who look at, let’s say the death of George Floyd, and say, “We need to hold cops accountable who do this.” And at the same time, still want to make sure that we have a good police presence. What is the answer to solving this within the police community to make sure that cops are held accountable for bad actions, but that also we are encouraging good policing to take place? Do you think that unions have gotten in the way, or what is the way to help strengthen our police force with good cops and not the opposite?

Patrice Onwuka:

Well, it’s a great question because it’s actually something that I tackled in another policy focus that just looked at policing in general. And absolutely, one of the important reforms that are needed is to ensure that bad cops, people who actually abuse their badge, who take advantage of the power they have to pursue crime, to hold people accountable, that they themselves are accountable when they do wrong things. And very often police unions stand in the way. Collective bargaining agreements that have been negotiated tend to take control, disciplinary control and actions, out of the hands of the local police captain, the person who’s heading up the local police department, takes those decisions out of his hands or her hands and puts it into the hands of an arbiter who, frankly, who is not necessarily looking out for the police force or for the community, but really just to ensure that a wayward police cop gets to be able to move to another city or another police force and gets to keep their pension.

So, I think, when we talk about reforms, we have to identify that the police unions are definitely playing a role and not in a very good way. I’d also say that this idea that we can demean police officers, that we can talk about defunding, that we can lay all of the blame for crime in society at their feet, and then expect people to want to go into the profession, that just does not work. It doesn’t happen. And it’s unfortunate that so many police forces across the country are dealing with a flood of departures and retirements of police officers who are tired of being disrespected and are tired of being blamed for things that they don’t do. So, yes, when a police officer does the wrong thing, they absolutely should and need to be held accountable. And, sometimes, that means there are legal penalties attached to their crimes, or they even need to be charged, but that’s not always the case. And we don’t need to paint every single police officer with the same broad brush as being racist, as being someone who’s just out to get every black person or out to hurt minorities. That is demoralizing. And that is why we see so many police officers leaving forces right now.

So, this policy focus, which was actually written by one of our good fellows, Rachel Curry, she talks about other reforms that are afoot — bail reforms, things that sound nice but have unintended consequences, that push more bad people back out on the streets after they get arrested, that just discourage really good policing. And so that’s what we need to focus on. We need to ensure that communities can be protected, that there’s good policing going on, and that we are not just falling for the narrative anytime a high profile or murder or shooting or something like that happens.

Beverly Hallberg:

I think you bring up a good point: there is obviously the policing aspect, which we need to look at, but then you talked about things like bail reform, and we could take a look at the criminal justice system and look at people who are incarcerated and how we handle that. And one of the things I wonder, just because this was signed into law under the Trump administration, it was the First Step Act, which was a bipartisan push for criminal justice reform. And some have pointed to that and said that is to blame for what we’re seeing today with the increase in crime. What do you say to that claim? Is there any truth to it? And do you view that as separate than some of the bail reform measures that we’ve seen that haven’t led to good outcomes?

Patrice Onwuka:

Yeah. I absolutely want to separate that from the bail reform efforts or reforms that we’ve seen. Letting someone out for, giving them a slap on the wrist for things like stealing, for larceny, for burglary, is not going to help them become rehabilitated. What the First Step Act does, actually, though, is focus on ending recidivism by ensuring that people who are serving their time are actually, once they get out, they’re able to get access to jobs or to work, to be employed, so that they don’t go back into the penal system. It also did deal with some low-level drug offenders and looking at whether the penalties are too high. That’s different, and it touches on the idea of mass incarceration, but this policy focus does explain a little bit more behind mass incarceration. Who’s been locked up during the war on drugs and how or why those are not necessarily the people that are being let out by the First Step Act or that when you talk about looking at whether the penalty fits the crime, whether that’s actually helpful or harmful.

So, it’s a little bit more in-depth, hard to just explain in a couple of minutes, Beverly, but the point is those are two conversations that we should have. One is who do you lock up and how long do you lock them up for? And separate is, well, once they’ve served their time, how do we ensure that they have the tools they need so that they don’t have to go back in? And I think we all, it’s a bipartisan effort when we look at the recidivism side of it, but I think on the front end, who gets locked up and how long they get locked up for, that’s, I think, where there’s a lot more disagreement and you can have some frankly bad policies that are leading to the rise in crime that we’re seeing today.

Beverly Hallberg:

And I think, when we have these episodes where we focus on a specific policy area, this one being such an important one, I think people ask, “Okay, you have great ideas, Patrice, that sounds wonderful. Is anybody doing that?” Meaning, is anybody doing anything about it? An elected official? What are we seeing on the local level? Do we see mayors and cities changing their tune? For example, we see the video in San Francisco, the videos that come out of people just walking in and stealing from the shelves of Walgreens, and Walgreens are having to shut down their doors. It seems right now that there isn’t a lot of change happening to try to curb the violence. Are there people out there trying to change it, and what does that look like?

Patrice Onwuka:

I do think there are people who are working on the ground trying to change things. They’re up against a system, an interesting system, particularly judges; they’re up against elected officials, many of whom in a lot of liberal cities think that the way to help minorities in an equitable way is not to punish them when they do wrong — and that’s not the right approach — or to demonize police and then expect that police are just going to sit there and take it; but either not effectively police or just not retire early as we’re seeing them do. So, I think that there are groups, whether you’re talking about mothers, whose children are lost to gun violence and wanton street violence, that are coming together, trying to bring police, local police, to the table, along with community leaders to sit down and figure out how do we reach these kids who are killing each other on the streets? How do we bring mentorship into the picture?

So that work is being done. Unfortunately, it does not get the headlines, compared to when a member of Congress goes back to her hometown and talks about how dysfunctional the police department there is. And, Beverly, let me just add in an additional layer of complication: COVID 19 vaccines. We are seeing, across the country, police forces losing police officers, those who are unvaccinated or choosing not to disclose their vaccination status whatsoever. So that’s a whole other conversation probably for another policy focus around these vaccine mandates, but I do think we’re going to head to a point where so many communities get and individuals get affected by the crime that they’re going to rise up and tell their local officials, “Listen, cut it out. Get this thing figured out, where it works, and then let’s try to replicate it where we are.” I think it’s going to reach that boiling point. And, in cities like New York, I think it’s already hitting, and I think we’re going to continue to have to see, frankly, a little bit more pain until the realities of bad policies become overturned.

Beverly Hallberg:

And so much of that comes down to elections and people voting and determining who they want in, throwing people out that they’ve been unhappy with, and that is when those running for office and those in office start listening and start changing their tune. I want to ask just one final question for you before you go, Patrice. And that is for those listening who say, “Look, yes, I’m going to vote. I want to make sure that the issues I care about, that I’m going to vote for those, but is there anything I can do in the meantime?” So those who are concerned about violence in the cities, obviously, they should read the policy focus, go to iwf.org to read Stopping the Epidemic of Violence in American Cities. But is there anything that you can encourage people to do in their local communities, whether that’s supporting the police in some way, or anything at all that you can suggest?

Patrice Onwuka:

Absolutely, Beverly. Number one, I believe just to being courteous and thankful to law enforcement. A police officer, when you see them, thanking them and letting them know that you support their presence in your community. It goes a long way and just reminds police officers that not everyone believes the narrative, but that their role is important.

Number two, I think we need to find those groups out there that are actually doing the hard work of bringing police officers and communities together to figure out how to address violence, what are the root causes, and how do we get to young people who are killing themselves for no good reason. And a great organization, Voices of Black Mothers United, this group, I’ve talked to one of their spokespeople. These are mothers who’ve lost their children to wanton street violence and they’re trying to bring communities together, community leaders together with police, to figure out what are the programs that work, how do we reach these kids so that they don’t have to get into the system and fall into the kind of life of crime that’s there. This is not the only group that’s out there. I know that there are many others, but there are groups across the country that are looking for support, that are just looking for people who are willing to help amplify their message.

And then, number three, we have to be good citizens, and part of that is at the ballot box. And so, I think it’s incumbent on us to figure out who are our elected officials and what are their policies and whether their policies really support public safety or undermine public safety? And then make our decisions based on that question.

Beverly Hallberg:

And what that just reminded me of, I saw a great news story on a group of men called Dads on Duty, which patrol the school in Louisiana, in their city. And the crime in that school has gone down just because dads show up and are present, laugh with the kids, correct them if they do something wrong, and just having their presence there has changed the way things are at that school. And so I just think that’s a great example of people just stepping up and saying, “Let’s do what we can do on our own and just make sure our kids are okay.” So Dads on Duty. Check him out. They’re based in Louisiana. Really great story on them.

And Patrice, thank you so much for joining us to talk about this month’s policy focus, Stopping the Epidemic of Violence in American Cities. It is always a pleasure to have you.

Patrice Onwuka:

Thank you, Beverly.

Beverly Hallberg:

And thank you for joining us. Before you go, Independent Women’s Forum does want you to know that we rely on the generosity of supporters like you. An investment in IWF fuels our efforts to enhance freedom, opportunity, and wellbeing for all Americans. Please consider making a small donation to IWF by visiting iwf.org/donate. That is iwf.org/donate. And last, if you enjoyed this episode of She Thinks, do leave us a rating or review on iTunes. It does help. Also, we’d love it if you shared this episode and let your friends know where they can find more She Thinks episodes. From all of us here at Independent Women’s Forum, thanks for listening.