Should the NCAA allow athletes who were born male to compete in women’s sports? John Lohn, editor of Swimming World, talks with Jennifer Braceras about competition, science, and the transgender athlete.

TRANSCRIPT

Jennifer Braceras:

Hi, everyone. Welcome to She Thinks. For today, we are talking about the growing threat to women’s sports. I’m your host, Jennifer Braceras, from the Independent Women’s Law Center, and I am joined today by John Lohn, the editor-in-chief of Swimming World. Hi, John.

John Lohn:

Hi, Jennifer. Thanks for having me.

Jennifer Braceras:

Thank you for doing this. You made news recently with a piece that criticized the NCAA’s policy of allowing transgender athletes to compete on women’s teams. You wrote in your piece… Well, you wrote the piece in response to the controversy surrounding transgender swimmer Lia Thomas, who swims for the University of Pennsylvania. Can you just tell our listeners briefly a little bit about Lia Thomas and the surrounding controversy?

John Lohn:

Okay. So Lia is a member of the women’s team at Penn. She formerly competed for three years as a member of the men’s team. A little more than a year ago, she began her transition and has followed the NCAA’s policy for hormone therapy suppression to meet in line to make her eligible to compete as a member of the women’s team.

In the early stages of this year, specifically early December at the Zippy Invitational, she raced in the 200, 500, and 1650 freestyles and put up just phenomenal times, times that suggest that she will scare American records come the NCAA championships. The issue is, because she went through male puberty, mitigating her advantage, her male puberty advantage, has clearly not happened. And there is a major uneven… There’s an uneven playing field now between Lia Thomas and the biological women against whom she’s competing.

Jennifer Braceras:

Yeah, it’s interesting. You wrote in your piece, you analogized it to somebody taking steroids or performance-enhancing drugs. Could you just explain a little bit what you mean by that when you say… Yeah.

John Lohn:

Yeah. It’s important that I preface this by saying I’m not accusing Lia of doing anything illicit in terms of taking a performance-enhancing substance. But with her background and the fact that she went through male puberty, her testosterone levels are akin to, let’s say, what the East Germans did between the early 1970s, the late 1980s. They took what was called Oral-Turinabol, which was an anabolic steroid, and it boosted testosterone levels. And they won everything at European Championships, the World Championships, the Olympic games.

American athletes — Shirley Babashoff is one, Nancy Hogshead, who has been a very vocal supporter of women’s rights in sports — and they all faced these East German athletes. Basically, you were stepping up on the block, knowing that, “I’m not just racing an athlete; I’m racing an athlete plus a booster.” That’s where we are today also in this Lia Thomas situation. Now, Lia is not doing anything… Lia is following the NCAA protocols right now. The problem is the NCAA protocols are, one, way off target. They haven’t been updated. These were based on science 10 years ago, almost 11 years ago —

Jennifer Braceras:

Let’s talk about that a second because I’ve done quite a bit of research on this. What’s fascinating is that different athletic associations have different rules. So, for example, at the Olympic level, until recently, the rule was that you had to… It was four years. It was four years. At the NCAA level, it’s one year of testosterone suppression. In at least 19 state athletic associations, the rule is just how you identify, no medical transition necessary to compete on a women’s team. And so the rules are sort of all over the map.

John Lohn:

They are.

Jennifer Braceras:

The Olympic Committee has moved recently. Frankly, I think they’re just washing their hands of it because they don’t want to deal with it, and so what they’ve said is that it’s up to the governing bodies of each sport. Now you could find yourself in a situation where the swimming board of governors, or whatever the association is, says, “Well, you have to suppress testosterone for four years.” And the running group says, “Well, no, just one year.” And the wrestling group says, “Well, you don’t have to suppress at all. Anybody can wrestle as a woman.” They’ve just completely washed their hands of it. So why is it… All of these people, all of these organizations claim they’re operating on the basis of science, and yet they all have different rules.

John Lohn:

You’ve nailed it right on the head there. They’ve all punted. They’ve all punted on this subject to get it away from them, so there is no uniform decision. They do not want to, in my opinion, have to get into a conversation that is going to be difficult. Well, the IOC oversees the Olympic games. Guess what, difficult decisions are part of the job. Get in there, because what’s happening now is that the biological women are basically being ignored, insulted.

I’m sorry to jump around a little, but yesterday, for instance, the Ivy League and Penn released a statement that said there was full support for Lia Thomas competing. The Ivy League statement, to be honest, I thought was very offensive because it said if you did not support her, you were basically being discriminatory and transphobic, and that —

Jennifer Braceras:

Yeah, I have it right here, actually.

John Lohn:

Can you read that? Then maybe I’ll finish up. Can you read that statement? Because I want to finish up one thing about that statement, if you don’t mind.

Jennifer Braceras:

Yeah, let me see if I can find it. It essentially said, it’s just what you were saying, we 100% support Lia Thomas, Lia has followed the protocols of the NCAA, the Ivy League also endorses those protocols, and we stand against transphobia, thus implying that if you don’t agree, you are a transphobe. That was essentially the gist of the statement.

John Lohn:

That is what I had the most difficult time with yesterday. And look, the last month, I’ve dealt with a lot of accusations of being transphobic based on my stance. The fact of the matter is the transgender issue here is separate from the fairness issue. Just because you disagree that Lia Thomas should not compete against biological females does not make you transphobic. It just doesn’t go. Let’s find a way to get her an opportunity to race and compete, but not against biological women.

Jennifer Braceras:

Well, let me challenge you even on that because here’s where I think people are misunderstanding the argument. Advocates of Lia Thomas and advocates of male-bodied athletes competing in women’s sports keep saying that it’s about inclusion. That’s what the NCAA says. That’s what the Ivy League says. Except elite sports aren’t inclusive to anyone. They’re exclusive by definition.

Not everybody makes the team. Not everybody gets a medal. Not everybody gets a scholarship. It’s not inclusive. This is not third-grade soccer, where it’s for health and fitness and social competition. That is not what this is about. That is not what the Olympics are about. That is not what Division I sports are about.

I think that at some point we just have to accept that not everybody gets to swim on the women’s team at a Division I school. And guess what, I don’t get to swim on it either. I’m in my 50s. I’m also a very bad swimmer. But I could be a phenomenal swimmer, and I wouldn’t be able to swim for Penn because I’m not a student at Penn and I’m too old to be on the team at Penn. So this isn’t necessarily about transgender. This is about, is elite sport allowed to be elite, and to draw lines and rules? That’s really what we’re talking about, am I right?

John Lohn:

Well, and I also think that if you look at the statements that came yesterday from Penn and the Ivy League… I have three little girls who I want to have an opportunity to compete. They almost abandoned the members of the women’s team then, and the members who have earned those scholarships, who have earned their way into elite sport because, let’s face it, Division I is elite sport. To take a single individual’s side yesterday, I think, is backhanding the individuals who are on the team and have earned their place.

Jennifer Braceras:

UPenn is part of the Ivy League, and they don’t offer athletic scholarships. I actually have two daughters who —

John Lohn:

Financial aid packages.

Jennifer Braceras:

I have two daughters that have played Division I field hockey in the Ivy League, and what people don’t realize is there’s two different things that are happening. One is that if you allow a biological male athlete to compete as a woman, they’re breaking records potentially, winning events, and therefore denying those wins to women. But on a team sport like field hockey, as opposed to running or tennis or skiing or swimming, on a team sport with limited rosters, you’re denying a space. You’re denying a slot in the academic class to a woman. Title IX was passed to equalize athletic opportunities, and educational opportunities generally, for women. But what’s happening is, if biological males are taking spots on these teams, that means you have fewer biological females getting those spots, hitting the field at all, forget about winning.

John Lohn:

Jennifer, can I give the swimming equivalent to that?

Jennifer Braceras:

Please do.

John Lohn:

Swimming is an individual sport in terms of one person into the pool swimming a 200 freestyle. There’s two areas where the Lia Thomas situation causes an issue from team space. At the Ivy League Championships next month, they’ll be in February, there’s a roster cap of 18 that Penn can bring to the championships. Therefore, 17 spots really now are available. You look at swimming also —

Jennifer Braceras:

How many athletes swim for them that won’t be taken to championships?

John Lohn:

I believe their roster number is about 40 right now. The other issue is, in Division I swimming, there are five relays, so five relays of four women. Lia Thomas will be on all five relays. That means there are five relay spots that have been eliminated for other Penn athletes to chase.

Jennifer Braceras:

Right. Now, I wonder what kind of pushback you’ve received since publishing your piece, because you alluded to that a little earlier in the conversation, that there had been accusations of transphobia or what have you. What have you heard from the swimming community, from the sports world generally, and from parents and students? Have you gotten emails? Have people reached out to you?

John Lohn:

Now, largely, the response has been people supportive of the stance, saying —

Jennifer Braceras:

Of your stance?

John Lohn:

Of my stance, saying, “I agree” or “Thank you for advocating for women’s sports.” I would say 95% has probably been that way. The loudness that comes from the 5%, and then throw out the transphobic term, calling me a bigot, that’s the stuff where you can’t have a dialogue to say, “Well, let’s separate this. Let’s break this down and parse this out and see where this issue is.” I know who I am. I support transgender, LGBTQ rights 100%. I’m looking at this from a fairness from a women’s sports perspective.

Jennifer Braceras:

Yeah. I think what’s interesting about this is the progressives are asking for inclusion, but really, I think we need to start talking about this in terms of the language of accommodation, because as we said, in elite sport, you can’t include everybody, but perhaps you can find ways to accommodate people.

John Lohn:

Correct.

Jennifer Braceras:

In other words, I go back to having to look at this on a case-by-case basis. If you have a fourth-grade travel soccer team that’s all-female, and you have a child who identifies as female who’s biologically male, maybe the team makes an accommodation for that person. Maybe the accommodation is they get to play, but they don’t get to go to the state championships, or whatever it is. They work it out. They work it out with the league, they work it out with the community, and they accommodate this person so that they can participate in the normal life of a fourth grader.

That is not what people are asking us for at the college level. That is not what Lia Thomas is asking for. Lia Thomas is asking for the right to win. That, to me, seems to go too far.

John Lohn:

Yeah. I’ll give you just a comparison. Katie Ledecky comes along in 2012, and for anybody who is unaware, Katie Ledecky is the greatest female distance swimmer in history. An argument can also be made that Katie is the greatest female swimmer, period, in history, maybe only trailing Michael Phelps and what he’s done as a swimmer. Katie put out records there that we didn’t believe would be even approached. Now we will head into the NCAA Championships in March with the potential of her 500 freestyle American record under threat.

The same can be said from Missy Franklin’s American record in the 200 freestyle. Missy Franklin, again, another multi-time Olympic medalist, world record holder. Her 200 freestyle record could be under threat because Lia Thomas’s best times from her three years on the male program are faster than both records, six seconds faster in the 500 freestyle, two seconds faster in the 200 freestyle. Now, there is some mitigation, but there hasn’t been nearly enough. If those records go down, now we’re looking at iconic records, iconic individuals, whose records are not broken by a biological female. That doesn’t add up.

Jennifer Braceras:

Right. So what do you think is the solution? You started off by saying that the NCAA policy is not based on current science. Is there another policy that you could get behind or that you think would balance the interests more fairly?

John Lohn:

Well, right now the mitigation… We’re in a time pinch now, also. Now you’re looking at January… Today, I believe, January 7th. So you’re looking at about two months until NCAA Championships. The NCAA is not going to be able to get a mitigation policy and replace and change everything around. I think the one to do now is, and I don’t know if they could do this, even, because they’ll probably find a legal battle on the other side, is to give Lia Thomas, give her an opportunity to exhibition swim, to time trial. That’s not going to be acceptable, probably, by her or Penn, but that —

Jennifer Braceras:

Going back to the claim that all these people want is inclusion and to continue doing what they love, would it not be a fair compromise to say, “You know what, you can compete, but you don’t get to take the medal if you win”? In other words, go ahead, participate, but the female-bodied athlete who comes in first is going to get that gold medal or that first place trophy. Maybe you can stand on the podium with that person, but the record books are not going to have Lia Thomas’s name. Would that satisfy people?

John Lohn:

I don’t know if it will, because there is something unique about touching the wall first, being that athlete who stops the clock, turns, and recognizes that the title is theirs. To touch second, and to touch second by potentially a several-second margin, it won’t be as satisfying. It will —

Jennifer Braceras:

It doesn’t feel the same.

John Lohn:

It does not.

Jennifer Braceras:

Yeah. This isn’t just about Lia Thomas, of course. This is going to start happening more and more as people are more comfortable coming out as trans than they were in past years. Renee Richards, who was a transgender pioneer, has said, in retrospect, “Maybe I just shouldn’t have competed in tennis. Maybe that was the price I had to pay for living as my authentic self.”

I don’t hear other people saying that. I don’t hear feminist groups coming out and saying that. I don’t hear the organized trans community coming out and saying that. Why is that such a controversial position? You’re asking for acceptance, and most people want to give acceptance, but not if it means that girls and women are going to be excluded and have to stand on the sidelines watching their own sports.

John Lohn:

Yeah. Well, you brought up Renee Richards, and she’s part of the women’s sports policymaking group, with individuals like Martina Navratilova, with Nancy Hogshead-Makar, who is a four-time Olympic medalist, Chrissie Evert. The fact that they can… They’ve worked so hard to get women’s sports to where it is. And for someone who has the experience and went through everything, like Renee Richards did, to speak on this topic and to say, “Well, this is not right,” that should carry a lot of weight. Instead, again, the “well, you don’t want transgender athletes,” is the immediate push from the trans community.

Jennifer Braceras:

Have you heard anything from the Ivy League swimmers themselves? I know there have been reports in the Daily Mail that some of them are uncomfortable and not willing or ready to speak out right now. Have you heard from any of them?

John Lohn:

We’ve spoken to several parents of athletes. The athletes are very fearful. They’re fearful that if they speak out, even if they speak out anonymously, and it’s kind of given, “I think I know who that is,” that they will face repercussions, not just being labeled as they are athletes, but potentially as they pursue employment beyond graduation.

There’s a fear out there of speaking up. For that reason, Erika Brown, who was an Olympian for the United States at this past summer’s Olympics in Tokyo, she went and posted on her Instagram account that this wrong; this is not right for the biological females to have to race against Lia Thomas because of the unfair playing ground. So there are a handful, but for the most part, no, everybody is very fearful and very apprehensive to come forward.

Jennifer Braceras:

Yeah. I think the more established athletes, the Olympians and the retired athletes, particularly those who are women and feminists, like Martina Navratilova, and part of the LGBT community, they’re going to have to be the voice of these girls because they’re not ready to come out and speak out against it because of all the societal pressure. I hope that Martina and Chris Evert and these other women — who, frankly, don’t have as much to lose right now because they’re already established and famous and had their careers — can really be a voice for these young women, because I doubt there’s a one among them who’s happy about what’s happening.

John Lohn:

I believe they have been, and I believe they’re going to continue to be. It can be something as simple as their… Nancy Hogshead wrote an article recently, wrote several, about this issue, and just retweeting that, pushing that article out to their followers, to their communities. But they have to maintain this because, you’re right, they don’t have as much to lose as someone who is currently an active athlete.

Jennifer Braceras:

Right. Now, I know in some upcoming meets, the Ivy League has shut down attendance, presumably because of COVID and the Omicron spread and all of that, but quite possibly also to avoid the negative publicity and the video footage which we saw from a previous meet where she absolutely smoked her opponents. Will you at Swimming World be covering the upcoming events, and if so, how will you have access to that?

John Lohn:

We have reached out to the University of Pennsylvania. They have a meet tomorrow that has not been canceled as of right now on Friday, against Dartmouth and Yale. We have requested a credential, and we have been told now two consecutive days that they are reviewing credential requests. We will have a writer there tomorrow if approved, but we will roll and adjust as is necessary. But we will continue to cover the story, without a doubt.

Jennifer Braceras:

Great. Thank you. We look forward to following your coverage and to seeing how all of this unfolds. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us about this.

If anyone out there is interested in learning more about the threat to women’s sports, please check out IWF’s and IWLC’s Competition report, which you can find on our website, iwf.org. That report contains background on the law, the science, and the personal stories of women who have had to compete against male-bodied athletes.

From all of us at Independent Women’s Forum, you’re in control. I think. You think. She Thinks.