Riley Gaines joins the podcast this week to talk about her experience competing against Lia Thomas, the male currently allowed to compete in the NCAA Women’s Swimming competitions. Riley shares her story and explains how much work it’s taken to get to this level of competitive swimming, how she and other women have handled competing against a man, and what it’s been like for her to speak out.
Riley Gaines is a senior on the University of Kentucky’s swim team. She tied for 5th place in the 200m at the NCAA Division 1 Women’s Swimming & Diving Championships with Lia Thomas. The trophy for 5th place was handed to Thomas, and Gaines is still waiting for her trophy to arrive.
TRANSCRIPT
Beverly Hallberg:
And welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg, and we have a great episode for you today.
Riley Gaines joins us to talk about her experience in competing against Lia Thomas, the man currently being allowed to compete in the NCAA Women’s Swimming competitions. She’ll share her story on how much work it’s taken her to get to this level of competitive swimming, how she and the other women have handled competing against demand, and what it’s been like for her to speak out against it.
Before we bring her on, a little bit more about Riley: Riley Gaines is a senior on the University of Kentucky swim team. She tied for fifth place in the 200-meter at the NCAA Division 1 Women’s Swimming and Diving Championships with Lia Thomas. The trophy for fifth place was handed to Thomas, and Gaines is still waiting for her trophy to arrive.
Well, we are glad that you have arrived with us today, Riley. Thank you so much for being here on She Thinks.
Riley Gaines:
Yeah. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for the opportunity to speak for myself, as well as past, present, and future female athletes.
Beverly Hallberg:
Absolutely. We love for people to come here and share their own experience. I would love for you to just start by telling us a little bit about how long you’ve been swimming and when you realized that this was a sport you really wanted to put a lot of work into.
Riley Gaines:
Right. So I’ve been swimming year-round since I was about eight years old. My birthday’s actually tomorrow, I turn 22. And so —
Beverly Hallberg:
Happy birthday.
Riley Gaines:
Thank you so much. So it’s been just over 15 years of competitive swimming. And so it’s a lot. It takes a lot out of you. It’s definitely a time commitment. We practice for about, five hours a day we’re in the water, and so big time commitment.
But it wasn’t until I was about probably 12-ish, 13 that I realized if I really stuck to this, I could be pretty good. And so it was about the high school age when I focused only on swimming, as opposed to doing softball and other sports as well. But since then, it’s been my complete focus.
Beverly Hallberg:
And if you’re swimming or at least in the pool five hours a day, how many calories are you burning during that time? I’m just curious. We heard all those stories when Michael Phelps was competing in the Olympics, how many calories he could eat. But how many calories are you burning during that time?
Riley Gaines:
So I actually use my Apple Watch when I’m swimming. And so it tells you exactly. And so I burn at least 1,200 per practice and we practice two times a day, and that’s not including our weight session. So definitely a lot of calories burned. I could eat like a horse, most swimmers can. So it’s kind of like an impressive talent.
Beverly Hallberg:
And do you have a certain stroke that is your stroke?
Riley Gaines:
Yeah, I specialize mostly in freestyle and butterfly.
Beverly Hallberg:
Got it. Well, I know that you recently, or maybe not so recently, but you decided to accept a spot on the University of Kentucky swim team where you’re currently swimming. What made you decide to choose this university?
Riley Gaines:
Right. I definitely know I wanted to say in the SEC just because my parents played in the SEC, and so it hits close to home, and Kentucky’s only three hours away. I loved the coaches after taking my other visits and stuff. This place really just felt like home to me. And I could not be happier with my decision to swim here.
Beverly Hallberg:
And so when you decided to swim and especially at this level, the collegiate level, did you ever think that there would be a potential that a man would be competing against women in sports? Of course, the transgender issue is an issue that’s been talked about a lot. We’re seeing a lot of changes among it, but did you ever think you would be competing against a man?
Riley Gaines:
Absolutely not. It really blows my mind how it’s kind of gotten to this point, especially the past 50 years, everything that Title IX has kind of fought for. I really never saw this coming. Even three weeks leading up to the meet, before they had officially said that Lia would swim, I still didn’t think it would happen.
And so when they kind of declared that it was all right, I was just mind blown. I was in utter disbelief that this could be something that happened, and it really opens a door for so many opportunities in the future as well.
Beverly Hallberg:
And you are quoted as saying that you didn’t see how people couldn’t see this as a blatant issue. And let me back up just a little bit. So Lia Thomas is somebody who did compete in male competitions. Lia is a man and changed his name to Lia and has now been competing in women’s swimming.
First of all, tell us what it was like hearing about Lia Thomas swimming in the competitions. When was that? And why would you say it’s a blatant issue? What are your main issues with it?
Riley Gaines:
Right. So when I’m referring to it being a blatant issue, I just mean if you’re just looking at it, Lia is 6’4″, whereas I’m on the podium next to her and I’m 5’6″. She has extremely long limbs comparative to the rest of us, major muscle definition.
And so when I say blatant, I just mean anyone with common sense can see where the unfairness lies in this whole ordeal. But it wasn’t really until about November that I even really knew who Lia was because she started posting all these top times in the nation, actually the top times in the nation.
And so it was in my events where I’m also a contender for the top spot in the nation, so I started to see her times being posted. I’m like, “Wait, who is this girl?” Because normally in swimming, just kind of like with every sport, you know who the fastest people are, regardless of what school they go to. But when her name started to pop up, I was like, “I’ve never heard of this person before. So this seems very kind of bizarre. This senior swimmer is all of a sudden going these really, really fast times.” And so after a little more research and more knowledge was shed about it, I realized that she swam for three years on the men’s team at UPenn, and so I was just shocked. But I didn’t really think much of it because, like I mentioned earlier, I thought there’s no way these times would be considered at the NCAA championships, and that’s what really matters.
And so the NCAA was back-and-forth, kind of, for a while about if she would be able to compete or not, but they finally released probably a month before the meet that she would for sure be able to compete. And so that’s when it kind of got real. I was like, “Wow, so this is happening,” but I wasn’t really sure what to expect.
But then once we got to the meet and it kind of all set in, it was honestly more so heartbreaking than any other emotion. It was just really, really sad to watch these girls placing 9th and 17th, who don’t advance to the finals, seeing them and seeing their emotions displayed. And it was really heartbreaking.
Beverly Hallberg:
So, tell me just a little bit about how the other women who compete have felt about this. Now, you’ve chosen to speak out on this, but what have you heard from the other women who compete?
Riley Gaines:
Right. I know I cannot speak for absolutely everyone, but I know I speak for the majority when I say that most people are not necessarily okay with this. It’s just not fair. It’s not right. When Lia was swimming as a male, she was ranked in the 400th. So that’s a very big difference from winning a national title as a female.
And so people recognize that, and people can see where that’s not right, and that’s not okay. And it can really have a huge effect on women’s sports if things like this continue. And so since kind of speaking out about it, I’ve had so, so many NCAA swimmers, athletes in general, parents to swimmers, and so many people just reach out and support and kind of thank me for speaking my mind, because I know so many people are scared to, or they’re told they can’t, which it is a bit scary.
But being a senior, I don’t have much to lose with my athletic career because I’m done. [inaudible 00:08:28] have that concern because it’s something that I find to be something I believe in, and it’s something I feel convicted to talk about. And so as well as I was presented with a great opportunity to do so.
And so I’ve kind of been the forefront of this, but I’ve also been in communication with Reka who is the Virginia Tech swimmer, who got 17th in the morning of the 500 freestyle, which if you don’t know much about swimming, the top 16 make it back.
And so, because Lia swam, she got 17th. And she was just heartbroken. And so she’s released a letter. I’ve been in contact with a ton of people and there’s a lot, a lot more support than anything else.
Beverly Hallberg:
Have you had a chance to speak with Lia Thomas? Have you had a one-on-one conversation?
Riley Gaines:
No, I have not, not since we left the meet. We talked briefly, briefly at the meet, but not into specifics about anything. But she hasn’t reached out or really said anything to anyone since the meet has happened.
Beverly Hallberg:
And I think it’s interesting. I’ve read this in your bio. So you tied with Lia for fifth place. Lia’s received a trophy. You have not, is that correct?
Riley Gaines:
Right. So after we tied, we went behind the podium where they were handing out the awards. And the NCAA official came up to me and he was like, “Hey, great swim. Just want you to know your trophy will be coming in the mail. We’re going to give this trophy to Lia. You can pose with the sixth-place trophy.”
And so I totally understand they only have one trophy. And I have tons of my own trophies, so not having a trophy was not an issue to me. But I was curious what their thought process was behind the whole situation. And so I had asked them. I was like, “Okay, that’s fine. But can I ask why you’re so adamant on giving the trophy to Lia?” And he said, “Well, we’re just giving it in chronological order.”
And so then I’m thinking, I’m like, “Okay, well, what do you mean chronological order? We tied. So I’m just not really sure what we’re being chronological about. So can you explain that to me?” And he was like, “We’re giving this trophy to Lia. Great swim.”
And so at this point, I was pretty heated because I had realized what was happening, and that they were totally just trying to save face in case they were to receive any backlash from this small minority of people, which ultimately resulted in them turning their back on what Title IX stands for and what the NCAA is really there to protect.
And so it blew my mind, but I know a lot of people could get to say like, “Oh, you just want your trophy, blah, blah, blah.” But the trophy is not the problem. It was really just how they handled the issue when they were presented with it.
Beverly Hallberg:
It’s the principle of it and what it represents.
Riley Gaines:
Exactly.
Beverly Hallberg:
And for the audience, I mean, we do talk about this issue a lot. But can you explain in your own words what Title IX is and why it’s been so important to you?
Riley Gaines:
Yeah. So Title IX, it’s actually the 50th anniversary of Title IX and it’s an organization put in place for college athletics to give females the opportunity to compete at the same level as males have always been able to. It pretty much includes inclusiveness, equity, fairness, and all these things to create opportunities and for success for women.
And so, by allowing this to happen, it was a total step in the wrong direction.
Beverly Hallberg:
And so for those, and you just use those words in reference to Title IX — equity, fairness — using terminology that many in the transgender movement would use in support of what they would like. What do you say to people when they say that, because you’re speaking out against Lia Thomas, that you were actually discriminating and you’re not for diversity? What do you say in response to that?
Riley Gaines:
Right, and I have had a ton of comments kind of like that. But I think you’re kind of missing the point if you’re thinking that what I’m saying is transphobic, or I’m suggesting these segregative guidelines because that’s not what I want. I think everyone wants fairness. I want fairness just as much as the trans community does.
And I just think we have skewed perceptions of what fairness is. And so my issue is not with Lia Thomas, it’s not with any transgenders or their athletic career, their transition, anything like that. It’s more so the opportunities are being taken away from women. While I do think opportunities should be created for trans people, I just don’t think doing that should take away from females.
Beverly Hallberg:
Do we see any women competing against men? So have we seen this in the reverse?
Riley Gaines:
I don’t believe so. We actually had a woman at the meet, another transgender, but she was a female transitioning to male. But she swam at the meet as well, which proves my point that transgenders aren’t the issue because she was swimming with her biological sex. And so to me, that’s totally fine, right? I mean, you’re doing everything you can to be successful with what you’re working with, which I think is … it just levels the playing field a lot more.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, as you were saying earlier, there are just biological differences between men and women when it comes to muscle mass and height and strength. I even remember there was — it may have been the competition that you were referring to where you tied for fifth — where there was a photo taken of them jumping off the block, or all of you jumping off the block. And you could see the distinct advantage that Lia Thomas had just from height, strength, everything.
So to me, that single photo summed it up in so many ways, and I assume that you get a lot of support speaking out. You talked about the teammates. You talked about parents, people at the meets. Are you finding as well that people are pretty vocal in the stands when Lia competes? Did you hear that as well?
Riley Gaines:
There was a couple straight comments and stuff. But for the most part, I feel like it was pretty reserved just because people can respect Lia. I don’t think it’s her or her swimming or her transition that’s really bothering these people. It’s more so the rules and how this is allowed to happen.
And so I feel like, yes, there’s always going to be comments both in support and kind of protests of Lia. But for the most part, I feel like people were relatively reserved. There might have been some when she was on the podium. I don’t know if there was as much clapping or anything like that, but there was not a really hurtful things I think yelled out.
I think at one point someone yelled cheater, which was kind of interesting. But other than that, I don’t think there was much else said.
Beverly Hallberg:
And as far as this decision that the NCAA has made — and I’m assuming will continue to make, that this was really just the first step of what we can expect to see — what was their defense in letting Lia compete with the women’s and this women’s matches?
Riley Gaines:
So Mark Emer, which is the president of the NCAA organization, he basically said they unequivocally and firmly stand by this because they want to be inclusive and things of that. But it just is kind of doing the opposite because you’re really just throwing away so many opportunities for biological females, and it’s now gotten to the point where scholarships are being offered to biological males, and it’s just totally turning away from everything, like I mentioned, that Title IX has put in place to protect; and it’s really harming the integrity of women’s sports.
Beverly Hallberg:
And so, final question for you: I know a lot of people support what you’re doing are sad that women are having to face this right now. What would be helpful to you or what do you say to others who want to be able to support you and other female athletes? What can you tell us is most helpful?
Riley Gaines:
Right. My biggest advice is to just use your voice. I feel like people right now don’t understand how much of the majority is seeing the problem with this issue. So whether you’re an athlete, whether you’re a swimmer, or whether you’re a female, male, it doesn’t matter. I think if you use your voice and you can kind of communicate that you can recognize and acknowledge the unfairness behind it, I think it would go a really long way, and I think more people would be willing to speak out. And I think this is something that kind of needs to be seen with some quantity behind it because I think that’s ultimately what’s going to make a difference.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, we appreciate you speaking out. We support you. We know so many others do, and you’re brave for speaking out. And thank you, also, for joining us on She Thinks, and a very happy birthday to you tomorrow.
Riley Gaines:
Thank you so much.
Beverly Hallberg:
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