On this episode of The Bespoke Parenting Hour Podcast, host Julie Gunlock talks to Jennifer Sey, mom of four, national champion gymnast, and former global president at Levi Strauss and Co. Julie and Jennifer have a spirited discussion about different parenting styles and strategies, the costs of coddling and overprotecting kids, the joy of and benefits of boredom, and how a large age gap between her kids gave her insight into how parenting has changed in recent years and how young adults are faring in the workplace.


TRANSCRIPT

Julie Gunlock:

Hey everyone. I’m Julie Gunlock, host of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to the program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families, themselves, and most importantly, their kids. Today, I am thrilled to be talking to Jennifer Sey, the former Global Brand Manager at Levi Strauss Company. Before becoming President, Jennifer held a variety of leadership positions, and this is so cool. She began in 1999 at the company as an entry level Marketing Assistant and rose to become the Global Brand Manager. I’m sorry, Global Grand President in 2020, she was the first woman to hold this post.

As a child, Jen was an accomplished gymnast. She won the US National Gymnastics Championship in 1986 less than one year after suffering a devastating injury in the 1985 World Championships. In her 2008 memoir “Chalked Up,” she detailed her triumphs and struggles within the world of competitive gymnastics. And in 2020, Jen won an Emmy for producing “Athlete A,” an acclaimed documentary on Netflix looking at the abusive behavior in the Olympic sports. Sey has also received numerous business awards, including Billboard Magazine’s Top 25 Most Powerful People in Music and Fashion. In both 2019 and 2020, she was named one of Forbes Most Influential CMOs.

Now, when COVID arrived, Sey spoke out about school closures and other restrictions aimed at kids. Her call to prioritize the wellbeing of children went against the mainstream narrative, and Levi Strauss, sadly, the company that she had been with for 28 years told her to stay quiet. In early 2022, again after 28 years in the corporate world and with that company, Jennifer Sey decided to leave it all behind and walk away on our own terms in order to be free to speak her mind.

Jen, I’m thrilled to have you on. Thanks for coming.

Jennifer Sey:

Thank you so much for having me, Julie.

Julie Gunlock:

Well, look, we have a lot of stuff to cover and I want to get to that, but I have to tell you just on a personal note, I’m trying really hard not to fangirl you right now, because as a young girl, I was a super-fan of gymnastics and the young women who competed in gymnastics. So what I’d really like to do is gossip about Tracee Talavera and Nadia Comăneci and Mary Lou Retton, who I’m sure you either competed against or knew of them, but it’s very thrilling for me to talk to a gymnast. So welcome to the show.

Jennifer Sey:

Oh, that’s really nice. Yeah, they were a couple years before me, but of course I knew them both and Tracee is actually a friend now. So I’m thrilled to hear you mention Tracee.

Julie Gunlock:

Tracee.

Jennifer Sey:

In the list with those folks. She’s a Bay Area person, which I was for 30 years, and we would see each other on occasion. And she’s a pretty amazing person.

Julie Gunlock:

Okay. I’m not asking you to say hi to her for me, but if you happen to be talking about this podcast, because, actually, she was my favorite. I had a poster of her. I read her biography.

Jennifer Sey:

She was mine too.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, I love her.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah. She was my favorite too. Yeah, she was my absolute favorite. So for me to then get to hang out with her as a grown up, I was fangirling too. She was always my favorite. She was such an original, and I don’t know. She’s just a good person.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah, she was great. Well, anyway, so a little bit of fangirling for Tracee Talavera. So I hope she hears this. Let’s dive right into sort of the parenting issues. That’s what we’re here to talk about. And I do want to, and I’m sorry if you hear my dog. Stop. The mailman just came. The mailman comes every day. The dog has to react.

Jennifer Sey:

Yes. Mine might as well. She’s a fierce protector.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes.

Jennifer Sey:

16 pounds.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. Well, my dad dog’s daily thrill of the mailman. We won’t rob her of that.

Jennifer Sey:

No.

Julie Gunlock:

So, I want to talk to you about why you left Levi’s — I want to talk to you about your activism, but I think what I’d really like to get a sense of, first of all, is your parenting style and your experience as a parent. You have four kids, correct?

Jennifer Sey:

I do. And there’s a wide range, and I have sort of an unusual, I mean, spread, I guess. So I have a 21 year old who just graduated college over the weekend.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh.

Jennifer Sey:

I have a 19 year old who’s finishing up his freshman year in college. And then I have a seven year old and a five year old. The seven year old’s finishing first grade. And then the five year old will enter kindergarten. So a big spread, very unusual. I sadly got divorced in between those two.

Julie Gunlock:

Sure.

Jennifer Sey:

And I met a man who didn’t have children. I assumed I’d meet someone that had children and we’d have a blended family. That was not my fate. And so I had two more, which was really cool. And the fourth one was my first and only girl.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh.

Jennifer Sey:

Which wasn’t the goal, but was kind of fun as a period at the end of the sentence, to have a girl, because it’s certainly a different parenting experience.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

It’s an unusual family situation. I was always a pretty relaxed parent, even with the older ones, but certainly when you have two young children and you have older ones that are doing well, you relax a little bit. You might not take every little hiccup-

Julie Gunlock:

Right.

Jennifer Sey:

-as if it’s the biggest deal in the world. You know this is part of it. This is parenting. We’ll get through this because you’ve been through those things. So, yeah, I’ve been a pretty relaxed parent, which is not to say not a caring parent, but a relaxed parent. I guess you could put me in the free-range parenting category as much as one can be in a city.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s funny because Lenore Skenazy, the sort of founder of the free-range kids movement, she got famous off of letting, she dropped her son in the hat department, I think it was Macy’s, might have been Bloomingdale’s, I can’t remember, and said, “Good luck finding your way home.” And he was eight years old. He had to go down to the Metro.

Jennifer Sey:

Amazing.

Julie Gunlock:

Buy a Metro ticket. Of course, I mean, in those days there wasn’t really a such thing as viral. This was before social media, but she went on Good Morning America. She went on Howard Stern Show. She was doing this big media blitz because people were so appalled that she had allowed her son to do this. And it’s funny, I always find urban parents to be a little bit more courageous on this front because they’re just tougher, maybe?

Jennifer Sey:

I’m not so sure I agree with that. Now I raised my two oldest children in San Francisco.

Julie Gunlock:

Okay.

Jennifer Sey:

And I find it to be like the home of the helicopter parent, honestly, and it’s to me, I guess, kind of I get it. Do you let your kids wander around in the city by themselves? Do you leave them at the playground? You don’t have a yard, so you don’t have that opportunity to say leave your kids in the yard for two hours to kind of imagine and play and all of these things. So they’re always hovering.

Julie Gunlock:

Right.

Jennifer Sey:

But I felt from the time my kids were very young, my older boys, they needed to be left to their own devices a little bit. They needed to learn to negotiate relationships with other children without me intervening.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

They needed to be bored and use their imaginations to come up with activities. I did not want to be a human television set that was constantly entertaining them. I felt like if I did that they would never be able to entertain themselves and use their imagination. So maybe it’s lazy parenting? I don’t know.

Julie Gunlock:

No.

Jennifer Sey:

But it was lazy parenting with intention. And so I had to take them to the playground. I was in the city. I didn’t have a yard. But at the playground, if there was a kerfuffle with another child, I hung back.

Julie Gunlock:

Yep.

Jennifer Sey:

And I let them sort it themselves. If my child who’s 19 who was always very introverted, wanted to sit in the corner at the playground and not play with other kids, I wasn’t constantly trying to integrate him. I was just letting him do his thing. And I think, my feeling is as a parent, you kind of have two major jobs is to sort of get out of the way and let them be who they’re going to be, let them become who they are going to become. And number two, make sure they know that they are loved all the time. And if you can do those two things, you’re going to screw other stuff up. It’s inevitable. A good friend of mine always says we screw our kids up just by being who we are.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

Just accept that.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

But do those two things. And I think it can go okay.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

That’s not to say without hiccups and challenges and all of these things, but I was just never a fan of excessive intervention. And if one of my kids came home and said that they got a bad grade or got in trouble in school, I said, “Well, you have to go talk to the teacher. I’m not going in.”

Julie Gunlock:

That’s right. That’s right.

Jennifer Sey:

“You either accept this grade. And if you think it’s unfair, then you have to go in and talk to the teacher. Otherwise, that’s your grade.”

Julie Gunlock:

How do you feel, so you have this enormous spread in kids, you have your two younger ones and you’re then presented with, “Okay, I’m sort of going through this parenting, these steps, again.” Was there any sort of point where, maybe it was enrolling them in school, maybe it was the playground dynamic, maybe it was the relationship with the pediatrician, maybe it was the content of the school of the lessons they were learning, that you thought, “This is very different than when I went through it 15 years ago.” Was there anything you noticed about that?

Jennifer Sey:

Oh, that’s interesting. That’s interesting. I will say as relaxed as I was the first time, I think the biggest difference is my attitude. So with the first two, I was a working mom. I went back to work very quickly. There wasn’t much maternity leave at the time. I felt very guilty all the time that I wasn’t doing a good enough job at work because I was racing home to be with the kids. And then I wasn’t a good enough job with my kids because I had to travel for work and they were left home without me. And I felt guilty all the time. I didn’t nurse long enough. It was always what I didn’t do. And so I always tried to make up for that. I did everything at night, and everything on the weekends, even though my husband at the time was the stay at home parent. I did the doctors and I just felt like if I didn’t do that, I was terrified they wouldn’t know who I was.

It’s so silly now that I think about it. And there was one time I had to take a trip for work. It was supposed to be a week, but we had all of these mishaps and I ended up being gone three weeks in another country. And I just cried the entire time. I literally thought my children would not remember me when I got home, which is insane. It’s ludicrous. But I just felt guilty constantly that I just wasn’t doing good enough. It’s that bad mommy thing. And the mommy wars and you have all these women who were staying home and touting that is the only way to do it. And you had women who were working and that was the only way to do it. Get a nanny and don’t feel guilty.

And I was like, “Ahh. I’m not succeeding in any of this.”

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah

Jennifer Sey:

But then with the second two, I let all that go. I let it go. My husband is also the stay at home dad. There’s seems to be I have a knack for finding men who are great at home with children and I just let him do it.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

I don’t worry about it. We split it on the weekends. I don’t do everything. He takes them to the doctor and makes all the appointments. So I just released myself from that guilt. And I think part of that is what I was saying in the beginning. I spent all those years feeling guilty. My kids grew up, they loved me. Yes, we have disagreements, but we’re good. It didn’t matter that I was away for three weeks in 2004.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

And so I let go of all that and I think your kids feel that when you’re more relaxed that way. So that’s the main thing that for me is different. But you ask a good question. I guess I would say, I think the intensity of the parenting is even more so.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

In terms of got to get him good grades, got to get him into the right school.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

I just never participated in that and I still don’t. My kids went to the public school that was down the street and that was what it was.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. It’s interesting, because I’m Gen X, I suspect you’re Gen X as well. And I think Gen X are well known to be like kind of chill about things. And we are definitely like latchkey kids. I always say that my parents were like, “Yeah, you’re okay in limited quantities.” Like my parents they loved to be together.

Jennifer Sey:

That’s nice.

Julie Gunlock:

It really is. And it’s interesting how I think back on my childhood and they definitely were like, “Goodbye. Go outside. I don’t want to see you for 12 hours.”

Jennifer Sey:

Yes.

Julie Gunlock:

And it’s interesting that Gen X kids have grown up to be the most intensely, because I covered the free range. I’ve had moments where this has come up. I had a law enforcement guy get mad at me because I left the kids in the car for five minutes when I went in to get a rotisserie chicken. And he was like, “How could you?” All the windows were down. They were literally old enough to walk in the store and look for me. And so I became intensely interested in this issue. And one thing that is so fascinating to me is that this generation of Gen X’ers have become, not all of them obviously, but intensely helicopter in many ways.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

And you mentioned seeing that in San Francisco.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

It really is interesting to me generationally how I think that’s changing now, a little bit, partly thank goodness for the pushback of people like Lenore Skenazy and I think good examples of parents like you who are like, “Hey, relax a little.”

Jennifer Sey:

Well, I think it’s a good point. And that is my experience, what you described, largely with Gen X parents. I should specify these are sort of well-heeled Gen X parents.

Julie Gunlock:

Sure, sure.

Jennifer Sey:

I think parents that are struggling a bit more don’t have time to worry about these things.

Julie Gunlock:

That’s exactly right.

Jennifer Sey:

In the same way. Like, “Should I introduce carrots or bananas first?” I mean, I remember when my bigs, we call them the bigs and the littles, were babies and you’re getting ready to introduce food and all of the moms, they drove me crazy, would just talk for hours about, “If I introduce bananas, they may never eat vegetables. So we don’t want to ever introduce fruit because it’s just sugar.” And I was like, “Oh my God, who cares? Just make sure they eat enough.” I just had no interest in that conversation.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

It all seemed so stupid to me. And my father is a pediatrician, he’s recently retired, but he would tell me, he had a large immigrant population in his practice and he would say, “The vast array of ways that children are parented around the world, what they eat, when they eat it, it’s so different.”

Julie Gunlock:

Right.

Jennifer Sey:

“It’s just proof that none of that matters. Just do whatever and stop worrying about it.”

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. That is best.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah. I think that the Gen X parents, perhaps what you described is a response to feeling maybe kind of neglected as children, so they don’t want to inflict that on their children, being home alone, being latchkey kids. But I look back and I used to ride my bike around the neighborhood alone at five. And I was a little scared at first, but then I distinctly remember it. This was in Cherryville, New Jersey and I was riding around and I thought I got a little lost, but I found my way home. I mean, that would be unthinkable now.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, totally.

Jennifer Sey:

Right?

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

But I think it built my confidence. And there’s this notion that the world is such a dangerous place, but we don’t even need to get into that. That is all-

Julie Gunlock:

No, I know.

Jennifer Sey:

-false as well. And I think I also played in the yard for hours by myself or with my brother and that doesn’t even happen now. And honestly, with my younger kids, I worry about a little because, the screens, especially in the last two years, we told them no screens, no screens. And then we told them screens, screens, screens. And I see it. I see the compulsion and it’s harder and harder to get them to go just play in their room or just play outside.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, it is. I loved what you said earlier about my kids need to be bored. It is a critical thing that kids have to experience. Boredom creates creativity. It creates thoughtfulness. It creates imagination. And it makes them able to withstand, as they get older, boredom, which still occurs when you’re an adult. It’s boredom is kind of healthy. And so that’s really interesting too. I have also dealt with it, but I have to back off and laugh at what you said about the vegetables. I too am so bored by these conversations with parents and I think you’ll like my response. I had this conversation with a very, very concerned parent, a very good friend of mine. I hope she doesn’t listen, because she’ll know this. And she’ll say, “I read recently, and she’s, it’s all organic, she spends an enormous amount of money on the right kind of food.

And she said, “Julie, I read this article,” because her daughter was kind of picky, a picky eater. And she said, “I read this article that you’re supposed to introduce things 10 times and then like by the 11th they might try it.” And she’s going on and on about all this. And I said, “Have you tried yelling at her?” And of course I was kidding.

Jennifer Sey:

I love it.

Julie Gunlock:

But my mother would’ve killed me if I had that. If you think about 10 servings, 10 servings of peas or carrots or whatever. I can’t afford that. I can’t afford that kind of food waste. So there’s no way. And I get it. I probably would just like let them not eat the vegetable. Anyway, the point is that my mother would’ve yelled at me until I ate the vegetable.

Jennifer Sey:

Yes. Well, I’ve always also said it’s okay to yell at your children. One of the other pet peeves I had in San Francisco in my early parenting days was the parents always told you to say, when your kid was having a tantrum, “Use your words.” Very calmly, like get on their level, and get on your knees and say, “Use your words.” And what you wanted to do was like scream and yell and say, “Get in the goddamn car. We’re leaving now.” And sometimes you did because you became so frustrated. And the other parents would look at you like you were this like horrible monster, but you know what? I actually think a child needs to know that if you push someone to their limits, they’re going to get angry. Now, they’re not going to hit you. We don’t want to model that behavior, but why do they have to believe that everyone is always going to treat them with kid gloves, because that’s not going to be the case in the world.

And I think, one of the things I think that’s so problematic about the style of parenting that you’re describing is that a child grows up thinking they are the center of everyone’s world. And that everyone will bend to their needs and their whims-

Julie Gunlock:

Will.

Jennifer Sey:

-and their will. And that their needs are the most important. Because if we censor, to use the language of today, the child’s needs in the family above anyone else, why wouldn’t they think that? And I think that is sending your child into the world as an adult ill-equipped to handle it. Because if they go to work, guess what? They are not going to be the center of anyone’s concerns in terms of their needs. But honestly you do see this in the world today, in the work world. They believe that they should be. And they believe that their concerns and their everything matters the most, that it’s selfish.

Julie Gunlock:

It is. Yeah. But let me-

Jennifer Sey:

And so I think you do raise a selfish child.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes.

Jennifer Sey:

That really believes they deserve to be the center of everyone’s attention. [crosstalk 00:21:21]

Julie Gunlock:

And potentially facing a lifetime of loneliness or bad marriages or bad relationships with people because nobody’s going to tolerate that.

Jennifer Sey:

No.

Julie Gunlock:

So you have to think of this as like, when we say like, “Let’s raise productive people who can live a normal life and have a happy life.” If you raise a selfish child, it’s not just that they’re a burden to you because they’re always demanding things, they actually could really have problems with social interactions. And that’s terrible to set a child up to be, frankly, lonely or unsatisfied for life with whoever partner they stay with. So that’s really important.

Jennifer Sey:

I think that’s right. I think the other thing I have observed, sorry, and you want to move on to another topic is everything that your child does is like family level crisis. Like, “What can I feed this child? Or whatever the thing is, is they’re going to be incapable of making any decision.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

Incapable. Because everything is going to seem like life or death. Everything is going to seem like this major crossroads. And you know what? Some things you just decide and maybe it was the wrong decision and you reverse course. And everything can’t be so momentous. And I think having the family’s attention be so child-centric now, perhaps in the past, it wasn’t enough, but to have it be just exclusively child-centric, I think just creates a generation of probably jerks that might end up being unhappy and are incapable of leaving their mother’s basement to make any sorts of decisions at all.

And I will say in some ways my childhood was very unusual. I was an elite gymnast.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes.

Jennifer Sey:

And in some ways I was the center of the family’s attention and that’s a huge burden for a child as well. And in some ways my needs were completely neglected. So it was this weird contradiction. But I carried the burden of their expectations of me, the winning elite athlete. And that’s too much, it all mattered too much. It was too central to my family’s existence. And I have made the decision as a parent, which is maybe my kids do activities, but I am not going to construct our entire family existence around my seven year old’s soccer match.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes, exactly.

Jennifer Sey:

It’s just not going to happen.

Julie Gunlock:

This is such a great attitude to have. And I want to just pivot a little bit over, and it’s so funny. I have like 15 questions here and I’m never going to get to them because this is so fascinating.

Jennifer Sey:

That’s okay.

Julie Gunlock:

But I want to talk, I talked to you about what about raising kids seemed different. You mentioned very early on that there wasn’t sort of these generous maternity leave programs when you had your first children. The second time around, what had changed? Both culturally and like in terms of corporate policy.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah. Well, if I remember, the first time, I think you got six weeks, which for anyone that has a child, and I know some people who are working hourly wage jobs who are going back after two weeks, which is just insane, but I think we got six weeks, and I think that was through disability. I’m having to remember 21 years ago. And then I took another few that were unpaid. But at a certain point and I was in a very early stage of my career. I was only 31. I think I was an assistant marketing manager. I couldn’t afford to take more than that unpaid.

You were guaranteed a certain number of days that they would hold your job, but you didn’t get paid at all. So I ended up going back, I think, at eight weeks. Now the most horrifying part of going back was so I was still nursing when I went back.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

So I was going to do the whole pumping thing, but there were no-

Julie Gunlock:

Facilities.

Jennifer Sey:

There was a place provided. There was no facilities, yeah. Sorry. So I worked at Levi’s at the time. I would sit in what we call the sample closet, which is where we sort of stored all the products for photo shoots and stuff. I would like sit on a pile of jeans with my back to the door which didn’t lock and try to pump with like tears streaming down my face.

Julie Gunlock:

With the noise.

Jennifer Sey:

With that horrible noise and people trying to get in. So this was not conducive. I mean, it was so stressful. Nothing would come out. I would sit there hysterical because it made me feel like a horrible parent. My husband was going to have to give these children formula, which was available widely.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

And it was awful. And I ended up giving that up pretty quickly because it was just such an untenable situation. With the second two, there was a much more comprehensive leave policy, but I was much more senior, and I felt, wrongly or rightly, that I needed to be available and go back quickly. I didn’t mind it. I mean I started working from home just a few, it was probably setting a bad example, I realize that, but I started working from home probably four weeks. And I mean, I don’t think I ever stopped answering emails, but there was a much more generous leave policy. And I know that some people on my team who were taking leave, I think five months was pretty standard. I can’t recall the law in California, but it’s pretty substantial and the Levi’s policy was generous and there were lovely facilities when you came back to pump with refrigerators and cordoned off little rooms and doors that locked and all of these things. And so that experience was much more pleasant, though still stressful.

Julie Gunlock:

Interesting.

Jennifer Sey:

The second time. Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

So this is a similar question. It’s a little different. So you were with Levi Strauss for 28 years, is that correct?

Jennifer Sey:

22 and a half, close to 23. Yeah, it would be 23 this June, next month.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, I’m sorry, okay. 23. Still, my God, 23 years.

Jennifer Sey:

Long time.

Julie Gunlock:

I mean that’s almost your entire working career is with this one company. So you started off in the marketing department. I love this. I love this story in your bio, how it’s I was an entry level position and then, I mean a classic, classic mail room to CEO story. I love it. So you have this long time, so similar to what I asked you about in raising kids, what have you noticed that’s gotten different about entry level people coming in? Have you noticed a difference in maybe the people that you worked with, and then the people you were hiring when you were at that higher level, when you would meet these young kids or young people coming in. What struck you about the difference in kids today?

Jennifer Sey:

Well, I think, when I started out, my attitude, which was probably exacerbated by my experience training in gymnastics, which can only be described as this sort of incredibly cruel and abusive culture where total obedience to the rules was what was required. You kept your mouth shut, you did what was asked of you. It didn’t matter. That was my childhood. And so my attitude when I started working was I’ll keep my head down. I’ll do the work. Maybe one day somebody might notice and I might get to go from assistant account manager to manager, but you didn’t advocate for stuff. And I think that was sort of generally the attitude definitely amongst women, but it was probably more so for me, because of my training. I didn’t even realize until 10 or 15 years into my career that I needed to advocate for myself, that I needed to say, “Hey, I did these things. I’m ready for the next level.” That I needed to say, the minute I gotten a new job, “You know what I want next? I want this. And here’s how I’m going to show you that I’m going to be capable of getting that.”

I had no idea. I was passed over time and time again for people less qualified because I just didn’t advocate for myself. I sat in the corner with my head down, doing work and no one noticed. Or they noticed and they were grateful to have me do that, but why pay me more and promote me if I wasn’t saying anything?

Julie Gunlock:

Right.

Jennifer Sey:

So that was intensely true for me. And I was lucky enough about 10 years into my career at Levi’s to have a female mentor who sort of said, “You’re going to need to advocate for yourself. That’s just how this works. Others are doing it.” And I learned to do it in my own way.

I find that young people that come in today, and I think they get a little bit of a bad rap and I’ve had some amazing Gen Z’s on my team while I was at Levi’s. But there is an attitude that, “I deserve an audience with the most senior people. You need to listen to what I’m going to say. I’m going to tell you how it’s done.”

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

There is some of that, but I will tell you where I think they get a bad rap. I mean, I have had some of the smartest, hardest working. So they may have this attitude that they deserve to be heard. But the ones that I have had on my team have been just incredibly hardworking. In addition to that, deliver great work products. They’re not complaining about their cubicle. I mean, all the things you hear. They want a corner office next week after they start. I did not experience that. I found them to be lovely, hardworking people that expected their voices to be heard, in a way that is jarring for somebody like me, that came from such a different place. But in a way I sort of respect it.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

And in a way I want to sometimes be like, “Okay, I hear you. Now, not yet. You don’t have enough knowledge and insight yet.”

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

But I had incredible young people and I found them energetic and inspiring and they saw the world differently. And so I don’t want to knock them, but they do come in with a swagger that, “You need to listen to me.”

Julie Gunlock:

Well, you’re more than welcome to knock them on this podcast. I just want you to feel comfortable with that. But I’m kidding. I’m kidding.

Jennifer Sey:

I do. I do. And I would maybe point out that, “You bring an interesting perspective, but there’s all this stuff that you don’t know yet. So maybe listen to some of the more experienced people too.”

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

Instead of insulting them, I’m more inclined to explain it.

Julie Gunlock:

To guide them. Yes. Well, it’s interesting, we’ve been talking a lot about generational parenting trends and here you have Gen X’ers, this is their kids and there’s this very sort of entitled attitude. But when you look at sort of the helicoptering and the very like careful and concerned about their needs, I mean, that may be part of the reason.

Jennifer Sey:

I agree with you.

Julie Gunlock:

With this shift. But, I do think, I agree with you. There are times where I’m so impressed with a young girl or Gen Z’er who kind of speaks up. I really love the idea also, we talk about the wage gap, but if you look at the data. And this is me in a nutshell, my first job, this is me. They’re like, “We will pay you X amount of dollars.” I’m like, “Oh, you’re so nice. Oh my gosh, you’re going to pay. Oh my gosh, that’s so nice of you. Fine.”

Meanwhile, my now husband was like, “Well, I think I’m deserving of,” and he would like research it. He would know like, “Well, the going rate.” Whereas I’m thinking they’re doing me a favor.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah. To pay you at all. Exactly. I’m working on a book now, a memoir I was just writing about my first job as you just laid out. And I was so excited I got a job in an advertising agency. I didn’t really want to work in the ad industry but I needed to have a job.

Julie Gunlock:

Right.

Jennifer Sey:

And I remember I got $16,000 a year and I thought it was the most amazing thing. And then I got my first check and I don’t know why I was so astonished because I’ve worked retail in high school and other things. It’s not like I hadn’t worked before, but it was nothing.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

And I basically had to eat free hot dogs at happy hours at the bars in San Francisco to feed myself, because I was never going to ask my parents for help. That was never going to happen. And it took me about a year to realize $16,000 in San Francisco, even back in 1994, was not going to cut it and I better start to say something.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Well, I beat you by $1,000. My first job, $17,000. I looked at that paycheck and I was like, “Who is FICA? And who told him he could take my money?” Like, “What? What is this?” I had no concept. And of course I was living in Washington DC. I mean, it was tough. So I totally get it.

Jennifer Sey:

I was going to just add one thing, because I think everything you say about young people, all of that, I agree with. This moment in the last few years that really struck me was the college admission scandal, which I followed obsessively. And there was actually somebody I used to work with that was arrested in that whole thing.

Julie Gunlock:

Wow.

Jennifer Sey:

And as I sat and thought about and, I mean, I read everything you could read. I read just the whole everything. I was obsessed with it, because it was so unsurprising in a sense. And if you think about it and I had this experience in my waning days at Levi’s as one of my colleagues talking about how difficult her life was right now because her children were trying to get into this fancy private middle school. And they had tutors and people helping with essays. And I wanted to laugh at her and say, “She gets in or she doesn’t. She writes the essay or she doesn’t get in.”

But so to me, that college admission scandal, it’s like, if we, as well-heeled parents, do all of this for our kids. We get the tutor, the tutor writes the essay or heavily edits it. It’s like such a tiny baby step to then step across the line in the way that it happened, because you’ve already done all the work for them. So what is it if you get someone to actually take the test for them and how do we not see this? I mean, when my kids applied for college, I said, “Pick your school, write your essays. If you want me to read them, I will, but I’m not asking to. And when you’re ready to send everything in, we’ll sit and I’ll pay for them.”

Julie Gunlock:

I’ll help you.

Jennifer Sey:

I’ll pay for the-

Julie Gunlock:

Postage, yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

-fee, to submit an application.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, fee, of course, yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

But you know as well as I do, I don’t know how old your children are, but this whole college thing it’s like kids apply to 20, 30, 40 schools. The parents have tutors to write the essay. It’s like how are they going to survive in college, let alone a first job when you do all the work for them?

Julie Gunlock:

Oh exactly. And it’s interesting how many parents are willing to write those essays. I know several people who are willing. And I say to them, “That’s kind of cheating.” And they’re like, “Yeah, everyone does it. ” It’s a very weird culture of acceptance of cheating to get your child, and again, I think it’s a lot of Christmas newsletter bragging, desperate to-

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

And it’s so funny because when I talk to people and I say, “Oh, well, we’re looking at community colleges.” My kids are, they’re 11 through 15, and I’ve got three boys. And so, “Oh, we’re looking at community.” I’ve had people who I’ve talked to, actually I can hear them gasp, like they’re shocked.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

And of course-

Jennifer Sey:

Totally.

Julie Gunlock:

-I’m obviously talking to other parents who are doing fine economically and so this is a different group of people who they’re very much on this child must get into the best four-year college. It’s incredibly stressful. And so it’s nice to be where I am, because I’m really not stressed about things. And my husband and I both went to state schools and we always laugh when people say, “We had to pull our kids out of public school and put them in private because of all the COVID shenanigans.”

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

And it was funny because we met with the one of the headmasters and he was like telling us all the great data on how many of their kids go to Princeton and Harvard. And we looked at each other, and I said, “How about a Virginia Tech track? Do you have one of those?” And you could tell he immediately relaxed because he was like, “Thank God. They’re not crazy parents.” But it is becoming, and I think it’s debilitating for parents. It makes parenting not fun at that stage. The last years of your child’s being at home and it has to be intensely unpleasant to deal with that stress.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah. I think it’s the inevitable result of if you make your child the center of everything, then they’re a reflection of your own worth in a sense. And so if you put all this time and energy into parenting and helicopter parenting and then your child isn’t exceptional, that’s humiliating. And so you kind of keep that going, but it’s a no-win game for both the parent and the child. So, anyway.

Julie Gunlock:

Well, listen, we’re coming towards the end and I know to those listening I sort of said we’re going to talk about what happened to you at Levi and we’re going to talk about the COVID and the activism and the amazing activism you’ve done on behalf of all parents. And as someone who, I have somewhat of a voice. I can get my voice out there as well, but what you have done to advocate for kids and for parents, and for at least listening to parents. People should listen to parents. And their concerns are very, very rational concerns about some of the COVID restrictions. I want to thank you, Jennifer, because you really made an impact. And I think so many voiceless parents out there, and, look, nobody on the school board cares what I have to say, in my local community. Nobody cares what I have to say.

And it was a depressing period, but I do want to just for the listeners listening in, Jennifer’s going to hang up with us and then she’s going to actually get on a live sort of on screen interview with Ginny Gentles, who’s a fellow at IWF and also does work for the Independent Women’s Network. And they’re going to cover a lot of what Jennifer did in the COVID restriction space and her activism and how that cost her her job. She voluntarily left Levi’s, but they’re going to get into that, and she’ll be able to tell the story there. So I don’t want people to feel like they’re missing out. It’ll just be this interview will continue with my colleague, Ginny Gentles. So stay tuned for that.

Jennifer Sey:

Awesome.

Julie Gunlock:

We’ll link them both. So, Jennifer, any closing thoughts here? Any words of wisdom for parents? I let you answer that one, then I have one more question.

Jennifer Sey:

No, I think I’m sticking with my two principles for parenting, get out of the way and let them become who they’re meant to be and just make sure they know they’re always loved. And if you can do those two things, I think it won’t be without mishaps from time to time but I’ll think you’ll have a successful parent-child relationship. And you know what? I do have one more.

One thing I think that we forget when we have very young children is that the primary relationship you will have with your child is when they are an adult. That will last much longer. So all you are doing really is setting the groundwork for that. I mean, obviously for them to also be a successful human being, but as far as the dynamic in the relationship, it is ideally about having this relationship when your child is an adult, that you can still talk to each other, and you still like each other, and you want to spend time together. And it’s not about carrot and bananas, and it’s not about doing their homework. It’s about sort of building a trusting, respectful relationship. And so all the to-ing and fro-ing when they’re really little, it doesn’t matter that much, as long as they know they’re loved. I don’t know how else to describe it.

Julie Gunlock:

That’s beautiful.

Jennifer Sey:

But I try to keep that end game in mind and it’s easier because I have two adult children and I know that’s the primary relationship we will have.

Julie Gunlock:

Well, I will tell you one last thing. I’m at a phase now, so my kids are between 11 and 15, and, especially, I look at the 15 year old who I swear is so huge now he looks like a full grown adult.

Jennifer Sey:

Man.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes, and I’m starting to think about, “Oh my gosh, they’re kind of getting close to being launched.” And I think about my life and oh gosh, and so it’s funny, I’m thinking, “Oh, how nice that you have these little littles.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

It’s wonderful for you to sort of do it again, so I think it’s lovely. And I think your wisdom here is really, it’s a beautiful thing you said. It makes me actually, as someone who is kind of like wringing her hands about that, it’s lovely to hear because there’s a whole new fun adventure coming with my adult children.

Jennifer Sey:

That’s right. I think that’s right. And don’t mourn. I mean you can sort of say, “Oh, people are so sad their kid goes up to kindergarten.” Like it’s all in the service of them becoming adults and the person they’re meant to be, and you can have this beautiful lasting relationship with them. You’re not losing them.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Jennifer Sey:

They’re becoming the person they’re supposed to be and so I try not to be sad about those milestones, but just celebrate them. Now, I did cry a lot at the college graduation, I admit that. So I’m not always successful.

Julie Gunlock:

You’re human. You’re human.

Jennifer Sey:

I am human, yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

One last question. Tell us where people can follow you or find your writing or if you’re on social media. Give us a couple links or websites or your Twitter account, that kind of stuff.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah. So my Twitter is just my name, and that’s probably where I’m most active, which is probably a really dumb thing to be. So I’m JenniferSey, just one word. Sey is S-E-Y. I do like Instagram, that’s mostly reserved for family stuff. I’m @jenseysf, even though I don’t live in SF anymore. Those are the main places.

I am working on a book, as I said, sort of a memoir part two. I did write one in 2008 about my time in gymnastics, which you can get anywhere you buy books. And I’m making a documentary about the impact to kids and families of the long-term school closure. So I don’t have a Substack or whatever for my writing. It could happen one day. But for right now, I’m just putting my attention into the book. I’m kind of old school that way. I like a book.

Julie Gunlock:

Well, I love it. And I will be reading it. And maybe you would come back, we do book events.

Jennifer Sey:

Oh, I would love it.

Julie Gunlock:

We would love to host you for a book event when that comes out. So keep us abreast of that. And I’m determined. We are going to at some point do a podcast dedicated to Tracee Talavera.

Jennifer Sey:

Oh, that sounds awesome. I would be happy to talk about the extreme, intense helicopter parents in sport and all the harm that can cause. So if you every want to talk about that.

Julie Gunlock:

I would. Actually, we’ll be in touch because I think that is a whole nother parenting style, the sports parent, and certainly at a high level, an elite level like yours. That’s got to be quite a story to tell. So we will definitely be in touch on that. And you are so fun to talk to. I feel like I really want to have cocktails and chat more because this has been a-

Jennifer Sey:

I love that.

Julie Gunlock:

-really fun conversation. So thanks so much for coming on.

Jennifer Sey:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Julie Gunlock:

Thanks everyone for being here for another episode of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. If you enjoyed this episode or like the podcast in general, please leave a rating or review on iTunes. This helps ensure that the podcast reaches as many listeners as possible. If you haven’t subscribed to the Bespoke Parenting Hour on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts, please do so, so you won’t miss an episode. Don’t forget to share this episode and let your friends know that they can get Bespoke episodes on their favorite podcast app. From all of us here at the Independent Women’s Forum, thanks for listening.