A very brave guest joins the podcast this week—Jennifer. She’s a mom who shares her story and her daughter’s story, and it’s one that has sadly become all too common. It’s the reality of how a young girl who wants to explore her sexuality and identity is then encouraged by classmates, teachers, and school counselors to come out as a boy without parental consent. Doing so has resulted in trauma, including her 11-year-old daughter contemplating cutting and suicide.
Jennifer has taken part in IWF’s “Identity Crisis” video series in hopes that she can help parents who feel lost, confused, and alone as a one-sided media echo chamber repeats the lie that in order to “save” your child, you must affirm your child’s chosen gender identity. So this conversation is to give you, parents, tools and insight so that you can help your own kids.
TRANSCRIPT
Beverly Hallberg:
And welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host Beverly Hallberg, and on today’s episode we have a very brave guest with us. Jennifer, a mom, joins us, who is here to share her story and her daughter’s story. And it’s one that’s sadly become all too common, it’s the reality of how a young girl who is exploring her sexuality and identity is encouraged by classmates, by teachers, and even school counselors to come out as a boy, all without parental consent. This led to trauma, including her 11-year-old daughter contemplating cutting herself and suicide. So this conversation is to give you, parents, tools and insights so that you can help your own kids. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us today.
Jennifer:
Hello, Beverly. Thank you so much for having me.
Beverly Hallberg:
And everybody listening, I want you to know that Jennifer has also taken part in IWF’s new documentary series called Identity Crisis. It features not only Jennifer but four other mothers to detransitioners and one mental health professional who speak on the harms the transgender movement is causing. You can go to iwf.org to hear their stories, but we’re so glad Jennifer is here to share her story. And Jennifer, really reading the stats is quite astonishing. The number of transgender identifying youth has nearly doubled in recent years. And even with this increase, did you ever expect yourself to hear that your daughter believed she was a boy? Did you think that was a conversation that would ever take place?
Jennifer:
No. And I think it’s actually… It went up 4000% in a five or seven year period. And that’s coming from a gender clinic in UK, the Tavistock. So yeah, I think it’s gone on up quite a bit. And no, I did not ever expect to hear that from my daughter. But honestly, before this all happened, I really didn’t know what it all meant.
Beverly Hallberg:
And so let’s start from the beginning. When did you first learn that your daughter believed that she was a boy?
Jennifer:
So I didn’t learn that until she had been seeing a therapist at the school that was recommended to me by the school counselor. And after she had been seeing this therapist once a week for a half an hour for two and a half months, so a total of five hours, this therapist then called me and used male pronouns and wanted to set up a meeting with me and my husband to help our daughter come out to us as a boy. And I had actually asked throughout the time this therapist was seeing our daughter, what they were discussing, and this was never brought up.
Beverly Hallberg:
So you were completely shocked to get this call then, right?
Jennifer:
Yes. Yes, I was. Okay. So let me just back up, I did know that she was experimenting with different identities and her sexuality. And honestly, again, I didn’t really understand what all these things meant at the time.
Beverly Hallberg:
Sure.
Jennifer:
But I did know that. I didn’t take it seriously because, to me, it was very much identity exploration, which I think is normal for a preteen or a teen girl or child. And I didn’t really think… I made it clear to this therapist before she started seeing our daughter that we knew she was experimenting with these ideas, but that we thought she was too young. She was 10 years old, too young to know these things, but that we of course were going to love her no matter where she ended up with any of it.
Beverly Hallberg:
Right. And so this is when you found out. Now, when you started unraveling the story and what had been going on, how long had it been going on that your daughter was talking about being a boy and even those in the school using male pronouns, using a different name than her birth name? What really was the story when you started unraveling that?
Jennifer:
Well, yes. When I found out after the fact, because a lot of these things I did not know were happening at the time they were happening, I know now that the name that she came up with and male pronouns were being used in her classroom from the very beginning of the school year. And I didn’t hear anything about her identifying as a boy until this therapist called me, which was right before the pandemic, so that was in February.
Beverly Hallberg:
So how much time had gone by, then, since she had been using a different name and when you found out?
Jennifer:
Six months.
Beverly Hallberg:
Six months. Okay.
Jennifer:
Yeah. So six months it was being supported at the school without our knowledge or consent.
Beverly Hallberg:
And why do you think your daughter didn’t come to you and share with you that she was using a different name at school and different pronouns?
Jennifer:
I did know about the name, I have to make that clear. I knew about the name because I got an email at the very beginning of the school year from the teacher with the name, which very much it could be a nickname and it’s very androgynous. And that’s what I said to her, I said, “Is this a new nickname?” So I knew she was playing with that, but I did not know that there were adults at school that were supporting the idea that she was a boy.
Beverly Hallberg:
And so that’s what I want to dig into more. You talk about the adults who were supporting this. Was it a teacher? Was it just this school therapist? Who were the adults involved? And what would you say led to, or what were some of the tactics they used to encourage her?
Jennifer:
Okay. How did they encourage her? I think that they were leading her without realizing they were. I know, after the fact now, that her male teacher asked her if she wanted to be in the boys’ cabin for fifth grade camp. I did not know that at the time. The therapist called me and said that she had said she wanted to be in the boys’ cabin. I did not know that her teacher asked her this. Now, I talked to her about this recently and she said she didn’t want to be in the boys’ cabin, that wasn’t her idea. Her teacher asked her and she didn’t feel comfortable answering him truthfully because she had already said to the whole school, to her class and everybody, that she was a boy. And this takes quite a bit of involvement from everybody around a child, to support this idea that they are the opposite sex.
And so if a child is just playing with these ideas, which many children are, they play with these identities and they’re experimenting, they’re hearing all these different identities in school and outside of school, but it’s very hard to discard this idea. So he put her in a really awkward position. She felt like she had to say yes, she wanted to be in the boys’ cabin. And after that, I remember her saying to me, “I don’t even want to go to the fifth grade camp.” And I was like, “I am just fine with that.” So he, I believe thought he was being kind, but he was leading my daughter down this path.
And I believe that the therapist was doing the same. The only thing… Because now I have the notes from their therapy sessions, which it took me a while to get from her, but I know that she was using male pronouns and this new name from the moment she sat down with our daughter and that she seemed to only be concerned with helping our daughter self-advocate for when anybody misgendered her. So not only that, but I know that there was a child in her class who got in trouble for accurately sexing her as a girl. He got in trouble, they had a meeting, he had to apologize and correct.
Beverly Hallberg:
Oh, wow.
Jennifer:
Yes. So this isn’t just affecting the kids who are actually going through it, it’s affecting all the kids in the school.
Beverly Hallberg:
And speaking of those children, how many other classmates of your daughter also were dealing with this issue? Was it just her and her class who was believing that they were a different gender and sex or were there other children as well?
Jennifer:
So she had a group of girlfriends, mostly, I think there were one or two boys, but that were all identifying as LGBTQ. And she had one in particular that they were sort of competing with who had the edgiest identity, which of course ended up being transgender.
Beverly Hallberg:
Got it. So we’ve had Abigail Shrier on this show before, who has written about this transgender craze, specifically among young girls and the cliqueish nature of it. And I mean, I remember when I was young, especially around that age, you do feel awkward in your body. There’s a lot of changes going on, you don’t know what to make of it. Do you feel that your daughter was going through an awkward phase? Do you think she felt pressured by her peers? It’s just the cool thing to do these days? Or looking back, what would you say were some of the reasons for her to be attracted to this?
Jennifer:
Yeah, it’s almost like yes to all of the above.
Beverly Hallberg:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
Yeah. I mean, I think she got attention for it. I think she had attention. She got more friends. She got special accommodations that made her feel very special.
Beverly Hallberg:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
I think she’s always been a tomboy. We don’t talk about tomboys anymore, there’s no such thing, they’re all boys. She’s always been a not stereotypical gender-performing girl. She’s liked to do stereotypically boy things, I guess. And so I think since there’s all this talk in the media, online, and in school about these different identities and possibilities that you might not be the sex you were born with, that was a suggestion to her and she thought, “Okay. Maybe I am a boy.”
Beverly Hallberg:
What did you make of the school not telling you sooner? So obviously they came to you when she started going to this therapist, which was six months after she was saying that she was a boy and going by a nickname, a different name. Why do you think the school didn’t let you know sooner?
Jennifer:
I don’t know. I can’t understand why they didn’t tell me sooner. I was up there as a parent volunteer for 11 years, so I’m clearly a supportive and involved parent. So it felt like quite a betrayal to me, actually. And I think what happens is that when somebody, a child, identifies as transgender, it’s like all reason seems to go out the window, all knowledge of a particular parent seems to go out the window, and even child development. So I was, I think, automatically treated as a potential danger to my child, even though they knew me for 11 years as an involved and loving parent.
Beverly Hallberg:
And you are in Washington State where they have a law that says if the child is under 13 in these situations in school, a parent has to be notified. If your daughter had been 13, do you think you would’ve ever found out? Or what would the school have been required to get your permission for? Or is that nothing? Could your daughter get hormone therapy? Could your daughter get the therapy, working with a counselor without your consent? I’m assuming this could go on for a long time without you knowing if there’s no legal reason to be forced to reach out to a parent.
Jennifer:
Yes, that is correct. The only reason that I found out that there was even this consideration that she would be in the boys’ cabin for fifth grade camp at 11 years old was because under 13, they are required to get permission from the parents and for a child to officially transition at school. Over 13, they don’t have to get that permission. And so, yes, it does happen. It has happened here that 13-year-olds have officially transitioned with the school and gone into opposite sex spaces without parents’ consent or knowledge. So I likely would not have been notified.
And yes, it could have gone on for years that my daughter was this sort of… Like the whole community would be supporting and deceiving parents about what is happening with their child at school. It’s shocking. And then beyond that, yes, they can get medical. So that they can be supported in this identity, they can be led down this path by school officials, and then they can go out and get medical attention at 13 without a parent’s consent or knowledge in our state. And the insurance will send a parent the bill for the copay or whatever that the procedure with the no EOB, no explanation of benefits.
Beverly Hallberg:
What type of medical procedures can a school authorize?
Jennifer:
So the schools, as far as I know, don’t authorize the medical procedures, they do the social transition. But the social transition is the first step to going down the medical path. But in our state, a child at 13 can and has gotten medical procedures and the drugs, the hormones, without a parent’s consent or knowledge. I mean, I happen to know of a child that went to the school middle school that my daughter would have gone to, had I not pulled her out, who went and did these things without a parent’s consent or knowledge.
Beverly Hallberg:
It’s just hard to fathom. When you found out what was going on because you were called about this trip where your daughter would be placed not just with boys her age, but also with a male teacher as well, what did you do at that point?
Jennifer:
Well, I just found out recently that the male teacher asked her and I was quite shocked. When I found out about the idea that she would be in the cabin, I mean, that was an automatic no. That would be putting my daughter in danger at the worst, and the least difficulty with that would be she’s in a situation that would be very uncomfortable for not just her, but for all the boys. And socially, I think it could have caused a lot of problems for my daughter who was already having some social issues, which I think has something to do with why she was gravitating toward this identity in the first place.
Beverly Hallberg:
And what did you make of her personality during this six months when this was going on? Did you notice at all with her being withdrawn or behavioral changes within the home?
Jennifer:
So she was not happy when she was going through this. She was not a happy child. When we actually pulled her out of school and we took away all of her devices, her mood was so drastically changed it was noticeable to our neighbors.
Beverly Hallberg:
Wow.
Jennifer:
Yeah. They were like, “Wow. She seems like she’s doing really well. What did you do?” I had to say, “Well, I took all of her devices away.” But yeah, it was also taking her out of school, she was not around that old friend group anymore. So yeah, when we pulled her away from all the influences, it was markedly different.
Beverly Hallberg:
And did you have conversations with her talking with her through whether or not she still believed she was a boy? Or what was that process like for her? Did she on her own just say, “I don’t think that anymore,” or what was her process in coming to where she is today, which is feeling and identifying as a girl?
Jennifer:
So it was really a slow process, actually. And I believe it was a very slow process for her to get into this identity. She went through many different identities before she ended on transgender. And when we pulled her out of all of the influences, I did talk to her about things. I didn’t talk to her much directly like, “Why do you think…” I did ask at the very beginning, “Why do you think you’re a boy?”, and she was very defensive at first and I let go of being real direct about that and I just started talking about things. We strengthened our relationship, we really spent a lot of time with her, we did a lot of things with family outside in nature, and I had lots of discussions about the world and historical things that had happened.
We talked about cults, we talked about the opioid crisis, many things that have a lot of parallels to what’s happening right now with transgender medicine, and we talked about detransitioners. Now, this took her a little over a year to get into this. And it was very careful conversations and it took a little over a year for her to come out of it. And these kids when they… Because I know several families now of desisted kids, it doesn’t just on and off. It is very much a slow, careful process and really focusing on your child and removing all those influences, very important. And unfortunately right now public schools are a very big influence.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, I want to take a brief moment to talk to you, our listeners. You may know the Independent Women’s Forum is the leading national women’s organization dedicated to enhancing people’s freedom, opportunities and wellbeing. But did you know we are also here to bring you, men and women on the go, the news? You can listen to our High Noon Podcast, an intellectual download featuring conversations that make a free society possible. Hear guests like Ben Shapiro and Dave Rubin to discuss the most controversial subjects of the day. Or join us for a happy hour with At The Bar, where hosts Inez Stepman and Jennifer Braceras chat on the latest issues at the intersection of law, politics, and culture. You can listen to past episodes at iwf.org or search for High Noon or At The Bar in your favorite podcast app.
Now, Jennifer, I want to talk to you about something that you mentioned that I think is such an important part. And that is when you found out what was going on, when you ended up taking her out of school because COVID happened, so it was probably just a perfect time to go through this, this removing her from school and influences, you also took away her phone. How much of a role do you think social media played a part in influencing her to think that she was a boy?
Jennifer:
Beverly Hallberg:
So I think we want to get to the takeaways on this. We have parents listening, maybe are fearful, they don’t know what to do. I think the first step is probably being aware of the laws in your state. Anything that they can specifically do to inform themselves on state laws, but also get to know the school officials, the teacher, the counselors there, to make sure that things don’t go on without them knowing.
Jennifer:
Yes, look at the school policy. And the unfortunate thing is that yes, get to know the school officials, but they’re not necessarily going to be honest with you about what is happening with your child. And even if you have a discussion with them, I know many parents who have had discussions with school officials who said they wouldn’t do something like change the name anywhere at school, who then went ahead and did it anyway, name and pronouns. So I don’t know what to say or how to stop that from happening, but I would definitely get involved and know what’s happening at the school. Definitely know about the state, look up the state laws, look up gender policy for the state, look up the gender policy for your district. They have them there. Sometimes they can be very hard to find.
Beverly Hallberg:
And I’m sure your daughter did not want to give up her phone, her social media accounts. How did that conversation go? Any tips on trying to take away some of the social media influence from your children?
Jennifer:
Well, what happened with my daughter is she got into an altercation online with her friends and that was when I ended up taking it away, so it was a bit drastic for us. But interestingly enough, when we did do that, she didn’t argue with us too much. So I don’t know that I know of an easy way to do it. I almost think with the social media, with the internet stuff, you just have to put your foot down and do it. But I think it’s important to make sure that they have some other outlet. What is it that they’re interested in? Get them an animal if you have to. Whatever you can do to get them interested in something else to get them off the computer, outside, using their bodies, is all very important.
Beverly Hallberg:
And also just in your conversations with her, you shared with us a little bit, just trying to help her, listen to her. Any tips for a parent who does have a child who is going through something similar who is questioning whether or not they feel like the sex they were born with or experimenting? Anything that you’ve learned with your conversations with your daughter that have not been helpful, but have been helpful.
Jennifer:
Well, like I said, when I hit her head on with, “Why are you feeling this way?” I think when they feel like you’re really challenging them, they can push back or they can feel very defensive. So I think the better way to go, I believe is to just use a really listening ear and maybe don’t react too much to what they say and try and just be supportive of their feelings because we know the feelings are real, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you agree with their conclusions of what those feelings are. And also, I think it’s really important to reinforce with them that you love them, as their parent, more than anybody in this world. And that is generally true for all parents and children, that you care about them more than anybody in this world. And anybody, this is what I said to my daughter and I think it’s very important, anybody who tells them otherwise is somebody they should not trust.
Beverly Hallberg:
And final question for you. How is your daughter doing today and how does she feel about you speaking out?
Jennifer:
She’s doing very well. She’s flourishing. She is on board with me speaking out, we have had discussions. I didn’t do it or become public before I got her permission. And we have talked about my various interviews and I’ve talked to her about my conclusions about what I thought was happening and she’s pretty much corroborated that with me.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, that’s great. Well, we’re thankful that she is supportive of you sharing this story and also for you being brave and sharing this story. Want to again remind listeners that you can hear more about this story and other stories at iwf.org, it is the Identity Crisis documentary series. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us.
Jennifer:
Thank you so much, Beverly.
Beverly Hallberg:
And thank you for joining us. Before you go, IWF does want you to know that we rely on the generosity of supporters like you. An investment in IWF fuels our efforts to enhance freedom, opportunity and wellbeing for all Americans, so please consider making a small donation to IWF by visiting iwf.org/donate. That is iwf.org/donate. Last, if you enjoyed this episode of She Thinks, do leave us a rating or a review, it does help. And we would love it if you shared this episode so your friends know where they can find more She Thinks. From all of us here at Independent Women’s Forum, thanks for watching.