On this episode of the Bespoke Parenting Podcast, host Julie Gunlock talks to IWF senior fellow and outdoor writer Gabriella Hoffman about her love of the outdoors, her work on conservation, and her commitment to get kids outside! Julie and Gabby also explore how the solution to the mental health crisis currently gripping young people in America might be as simple as opening the door and walking outside, why parents need to do a better job of teaching their kids basic life skills, and how resources exist to help parents and kids learn more about outdoor activities.

Resources

TRANSCRIPT

Julie Gunlock:

Hey, everyone. I’m Julie Gunlock, the host of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to this program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom-tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families, themselves, and most importantly their kids. So today, I’m really excited to be speaking with Gabriella Hoffman. Gabriella? There you are. Hey, Gabriella.

Gabriella Hoffman:

Good to see you, Julie. Thanks for having me on.

Julie Gunlock:

I’m so glad you’re here. And I’m really excited about this subject that we’re going to be talking about. We’re going to be talking about parenting in the great outdoors and a few other topics. But first, I want to introduce you. Gabriella is a senior fellow with the Independent Women’s Forum, she’s also a freelance media consultant, columnist, podcaster, an award-winning outdoor writer. Gabby is also focused on the economy and energy policy. So she’s got quite a broad set of issues she covers. Great to have you on, Gabby.

Gabriella Hoffman:

Yes. And although I’m not a parent, I know how important the topics we’re going to discuss are for parents and those of us who are childless currently, and how that all mixes in well.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. Well, it is a really important issue and I want to get into that. And I think it’s so fitting that my dog — you may not be able to pick it up, but my dog is barking like a mad woman outside. So pardon and she sometimes comes back in the house and does zoomies, so let’s hope she doesn’t. So I think I want to start off talking about, I mean, you are sort of a well-known policy analyst in Washington and, again, you cover a lot of issues, but you’re also known as this sort of outdoors woman. You do a lot of hunting, fishing, you spend a tremendous amount of time highlighting that industry and the leaders in that industry. What got you into this or did you grow up this way?

Gabriella Hoffman:

I think it’s a combination of both. I had a very early love of the outdoors. I learned how to appreciate my surroundings. I started how to fish when I was eight years old. Got really seriously into it by the time I was 12, thanks to my dad. I think typically when people in my generation grew up, it was our fathers handing down these traditions. But even moreso today, now with this new generation, actually, it’s the reverse actually, mothers and wives are introducing their kids to the outdoors, and we could talk more about that, especially fishing. But I had the fortune of having a father who loved the outdoors. He picked it up randomly growing up in the Iron Curtain in Lithuania, what is now present-day Lithuania. A very beautiful country, very naturalistic country, lots of rivers and some oceans on the Baltic Sea and lots of opportunities for mushroom hunting.

And so, he wanted to transfer those traditions down to me. Although growing up in California it’s a little different, but there were still plentiful outdoor activities. So we had the Pacific Ocean, that was one of the first playgrounds of the outdoors that I had. We also went camping to various national parks. I think my first national park ever was both Yosemite and Sequoia National Parks. So I got to see what public lands were and appreciate world wonders that we have here in the United States. In California, even with all the problems assigned to it today, it is still known as one of the best outdoorsy states. So it was a great playground, great foreground to go into these issues even on the policy side later on in life. But I’ve been feet first into these activities since I was little. I grew up by the ocean, even just being by the water, I was very fortunate to have that opportunity, and I think it really shaped who I am, especially working in policy; I think I’m more laid back compared to a lot of people in the DC metro area.

I’m a lot more relaxed because I try to spend as much time outdoors. I don’t get to spend as much time outdoors as I’d like, but I think my firsthand experiences and then also talking to people who are far more experienced than me and are more knowledgeable because I’m kinda limited on what I can do; I don’t have plentiful access to go backcountry hunting like I would out West. Out East, it’s a lot more private land, so it’s a little harder to access over here. But it’s totally different situations, but still unique in their own regards. But I talk to people, too, who are far more experts than me and get their sentiments on how certain public policy decisions affect them. So I never say I’m an expert, I just try to be a good listener and someone who can dispense stories really well and give certain perspectives that are often misrepresented in media.

And I think that’s what has largely led to me standing out among others who cover natural resources. And I don’t want to be the only person to cover natural resources; I want to force my reporting or I want to have my reporting force others who are journalists or writers to actually look beyond the narrative, look beyond, let’s say, environmentalist talking points or preservationist talking points, beyond let’s say what we see as acceptable energy policy, you have to agree with everything being climate centric, but you can actually decouple a lot of energy policies from climate.

And so, I try to challenge people to do that, but I also have the luxury of enjoying the great outdoors, and that also, I think, shapes my view of conservation and environmentalism because it’s one thing to talk about you’re for the environment; it’s another to actually spend time outdoors. And a lot of people in public policy, media, elected office, they virtue signal on being an outdoors person. They say it from their ivory tower, they really don’t spend that much time outdoors. You can surmise that from their musings and from their policy positions —

Julie Gunlock:

They glamp.

Gabriella Hoffman:

They glamp, and there’s nothing wrong with glamping. I do a hybrid of glamping and roughing it out in the woods, but you can’t just default to glamping, you have to get your hands dirty, do all that type of stuff. So I think a lot of people — and it goes to this greater disconnect between urban and rural entities in the United States, this kind of rural-urban divide and even suburban divide too that you see. And that’s unfortunately shaping how people perceive the outdoors. They want top-down government approaches to fixing and remedying problems. They’re very removed from where their food comes from. They’re very removed from seeing how people interact with wildlife. They have these assumptions about hunters and anglers, that they’re all natural-born killers and they have no regard for wildlife and the species that they see. And what goes a lot into decisions with hunting and fishing, you have to be judicious. You can’t just kill everything you see. I think that’d be wrong.

Julie Gunlock:

Well, let’s get into this a little bit more. You mentioned the word conservation. That is very different from the radical environmentalism that we see today, and I want to bring this back to kids. We know that there is increased anxiety and depression and fear out there. Katie Porter, a congresswoman, I believe she won her election. It was kind of a narrow finish, but she just got reelected in California. She, I think a couple months ago, was talking at a committee hearing and talked about her daughter crying and saying, “We’re all going to be dead in a few years.” Because of this sort of AOC Greta narrative that we see out there that within AOC is saying like we only have 12 years left on …

I think Greta said that too. We only have 12 years left on the planet. I mean, I think about when I was growing up, 1980s, I was a very young kid, and the idea of nuclear obliteration was real. I really thought it could happen. You remember all the movies coming out about the Russians and the missile strikes and get under your desk. I mean, this stuff resonates with kids. And so, tell us what you think is the better way to get kids to respect the earth and respect the land and sort of care about the earth without veering into this alarmist messages, which seems to be the only message leftist environmentalists — or should I say just environmentalists? — will give.

Gabriella Hoffman:

Yeah, preservationists like Katie Porter, who unfortunately represents a district that I lived in for a long time, that used to be historically conservative.

Julie Gunlock:

That was Chris Cox. I used to work for Chris Cox on Capitol Hill. So did IWF President Carrie Lukas. We worked in his district, you say it, historically conservative.

Gabriella Hoffman:

And actually part of her district where I lived, actually it’s the breeding ground of the Real Housewives franchise in Coto de Caza. I didn’t get there because my parents were super wealthy. My dad just ran into the fortune of buying land when it was really cheap and wanting to build some houses. So living in Coto de Caza, which actually was a historic hunt preserve for the celebrities of Hollywood and the rich and the elite. So it’s an area that is historically, they know the land, they tend to the land, they liked hunting. That part of Orange County was very … it has a lot of orange groves and agriculture and hunting too as well. And so it’s not surprising to see Katie Porter represent that because a lot of people from Los Angeles and elsewhere have moved there.

But related to your question more so, because I got off on a tangent, I think the climate anxiety that she is espousing is extremely dangerous for kids and she’s not the only person to echo this. And I remember hearing as a young child, and I would always ask my parents being the curious child, we’d always hear that bald eagles are on the verge of extinction. And at the time they were very imperiled and they had a very, let’s say, doom and gloom kind of outcast about their status as a species. But in recent years, they’ve just been reported to say that they’ve fully recovered and that no protections are needed anymore. So things can certainly change. And when kids hear that you only have X amount of years until a climate catastrophe or eating meat is dangerous; red meat is going to kill you; and consuming fish, how dare you consume fish because they have feelings — when kids hear this, I hate to say that they get screwed up, but I think that a lot of their psyche gets damaged when they hear this type of stuff.

They lose the confidence to be able to get their fingers dirty to go outdoors. You have these helicopter parents who believe this, and they say that obesity in children is because of climate change, and it’s not. It’s because kids have a very sedentary lifestyle now. Because they’re on their technology, they’re not going outdoors. And then you have that combined with climate anxiety. These kids are a lot worse off. I had the fortune of not growing up like that because my dad was very much wanting me to be active and to be aware of my surroundings and to not chastise the free-market economy and other economic structures in place that made us not only an economic leader but also an environmental leader. So I think a lot of these parents have misguided views about environmentalism and the surroundings. Again, it goes back to many of them have this perch that they know better, they know the environment, but like I said, they’re very removed from it.

If you, in southern California for instance, there are mountain lions that prowl the region, and there have been a lot of mountain lion attacks on people because there’s no hunt season. There are a lot of predators that run wild in southern California too. And people are totally unaware of why are these incidences occurring? You can’t manage them, we can’t do this because they’re so cute and fluffy. And so they have this very warped view of wildlife and then kind of similarly transfers down to their view of environmentalism because they’re taught and preach that if I recycle, I’m doing my part, I’m going to lecture to people, I have to decarbonize by an arbitrary deadline, but I’m not going to do it because if I message it, I’m immune from criticism, the crocodile’s going to eat me last. But they don’t follow through with those commitments too. And so a lot of parents, I’m not going to say all parents, I don’t want to castigate every single parent, but a lot of parents have bought into this kind of climate alarmism and by extension, this preservationist environmentalist attitude where they believe that hunting is immoral, fishing is going to totally decimate oceans, going outdoors, you can’t do it because it’s too dangerous.

Right after the really tragic killing of that young influencer, Gabby Petito, a lot of people were saying, “Oh my gosh, to go to a national park, it’s more dangerous than the city.” There’s no verifiable proof about that. And so this fear mongering about our relationship with the great outdoors and with nature has been warped and totally convoluted because they apply rare instances or unprovable, let’s say instances and say this is the norm, this is what’s happening.

But the data shows otherwise. New data I sent to you over an email — we’ll probably explore this more at IWF — red meat consumption is actually not as dangerous as it’s [inaudible 00:12:52 lauded] to be. 96% of, let’s say, natural disasters are… It’s a decline in natural disasters by 96% since the beginning of the 20th century. So there are fewer climate related disasters now happening. We’re in a much better situation. There’s a higher quality of living. We just hit eight billion people across the globe, and you still have people pushing this narrative of population control, but many are refuting that as well.

Julie Gunlock:

You mentioned some of these things. I think about the fires in California. There isn’t proper land management going on. They are not trimming down, then clearing out the brush because you’ve got environmentalists saying like, “We don’t want to disturb any habitats.” Every time there’s a hurricane, they repeat the lie that this is climate … that first of all there’s more hurricanes, which isn’t true. But then they say it’s all because of climate change. They say the same thing with tornadoes. Anytime a weather incident happens, they use it as a cudgel. They use it as a way to convey this message that, again, that we’re all going to die. And again, that gets back to children. But I want to go back to one thing you said. You talked about the amount of time kids spend inside, and we know why, on their screens.

And I looked up the latest [inaudible 00:14:09]. It’s just absolutely horrifying. The on average daily screen use went up among tweens age eight to 12, to five hours and 33 minutes from four hours and 44 minutes last year; and to eight hours and 39 minutes from seven hours and 22 minutes for teens, that’s age 13 to 18. So we see a constant upper trajectory. I have to say we really keep our kids busy and we have really strict rules. I mean, I don’t understand when parents say they can’t say no. What’s so confusing? Is it the N or the O? It’s just a word. It’s no. And your children should respect you saying no. And my children do because from a very young age — and I’m not here to say I’m the greatest parent in the world because it is hard, it’s difficult sometimes. And sometimes as a parent also, especially when the new season of The Crown comes out, I just kind of want to say, “Okay, go play your games.” But it’s important not to. And it’s important to have that control.

So we get them involved in Boy Scouts, we get them involved in, my son is involved in an Air Force thing for kids and there’s other things that we constantly have them active. You know, I feel like, one, parents aren’t doing that enough. But I also feel like the clubs that were designed to help people with this have also sort of are not as active as they should be. And I want to talk to you just a little bit because you are a woman in a male-dominated industry, hunting, fishing, all of this. Let’s talk a little bit about Girl Scouts because the Girl Scouts recently got…. Frankly, girls were so tired of doing crafts and baking cookies that they are now becoming Boy Scouts.

And I have three boys; they’re all involved in Boy Scouts, and I mean, my husband is off on a camping trip every weekend. So they really do put a huge emphasis on physical fitness and camping and survival and basically, I think this also adds to some skills, executive skills, but I want to get your opinion on that whole brouhaha, the Girl Scouts and what you think that means really for both the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts. And if there are other things parents can turn to if they’re not happy with the Girl Scouts.

Gabriella Hoffman:

These legacy organizations which did teach boys and girls respectively, these very valuable skills. I didn’t have the luxury of being involved in Girl Scouts because my parents weren’t really keen on it. My dad’s always been kind of a go at your own pace, individual type of thing. He doesn’t really like collective organizations. He’s always had animus to that since his time growing up in the Soviet Union. So he was like, “I don’t think you really need that so I’m going to kind of show you how to do this.” But most parents would put their kids, I had a lot of friends go through those programs, both Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. And I remember hearing that they learned how to camp, they learned how to start a fire, they learned how to fish. They learned different practical skills. And I think there is an opening actually beyond these groups if you’re dissatisfied with the direction they’re going in terms of them embracing woke politics or really straying away from their mission system.

There’s alternatives like American Heritage Girls. And I don’t know what the alternative for boys is, but even in the outdoor industry or through nonprofits, mainstream nonprofits that are out there that are fishing and hunting specific, they have a lot of kids programming. If your kid wants to learn how to fish, how to hunt, how to set up a tent, how to go camping, what have you, there are a lot of organizations out there that cater to kids. Actually, the kids are lucky to have all these free resources when they get their license and they learn how to do hunter’s education. And there are fewer roadblocks actually to fishing. Fishing is an easier sport to get into. And so you could see a hunting organization and even as simple as down to your state wildlife agency. So here in Virginia, in our state, in our commonwealth, we have a really good wildlife agency that has a lot of programming for kids.

So it’ll say, “you want to learn how to fish? Here’s how you teach a kid how to fish. Here are the resources, here are locations you can go to.” There’s an organization called Take Me Fishing. It’s owned by the recreational Boating and Fishing Foundation based in Alexandria. I’ve gotten to know those people really well, and they steward a lot of fishing resources. So they have a really interactive map. They have blogs and other resources like how to teach a kid how to fish, simple stuff. And you can watch YouTube tutorials, learn how to get a license, and find locations near you. So there’s so many tools.

Julie Gunlock:

I know what I’m going to be doing right after this because I didn’t know about that.

Gabriella Hoffman:

Yes. So even outside of these legacy organizations, I could point you and your listeners to a lot of these resources. And on the hunting side, too, even though hunting is a little more difficult because you have to buy some weapons to go hunting, whether it’s a bow or a rifle. But a lot of people will be open to teaching kids how to shoot properly, how to do the safety rules, how to handle guns and bows properly and safely and lend you guns all the while supervising the children, teaching them —

Julie Gunlock:

Can I cut in there just real quick?

Gabriella Hoffman:

Sure.

Julie Gunlock:

You write on the economy. I mean, people are struggling. I have one preteen and two teens, and my food budget, Gabby, I can’t even describe how my food costs have gone through the roof. Obviously, everyone’s feeling this. Are some of these resources offered for a lower cost, no cost, and what is it? Is it a one-time deal, or do you have to sign up and be a part of a club? Isaac Walton League is one example that I know of, but there’s a membership fee and there’s training, and I have to go and take a four-hour class beforehand. So give us a sense of those resources on the pay scale and how much a parent has to do to get their kid involved.

Gabriella Hoffman:

Believe it or not, budgeting for kids, going fishing and hunting is actually pretty affordable. When you break down the cost of what you’re going to be paying for meat, whether it’s trout or beef in the store compared to let’s say the cost of licenses for kids — and depending upon the age of the children, I think most of the license fees are waived, for fishing especially. But hunting, I think some limits start to go into effect at 12 or 14 years old. So you need to check the wildlife agency of your state to see what the rules are. But for children, very, very easy barrier to entry in terms of costs, and you can look to see how much those are. But you buy the license, or once you have a license or a permit, the sky’s the limit as to what you can do. And if you’re lucky, sometimes the opportunities are a little scarce or challenging to … you’re never guaranteed a fish or you’re never guaranteed a deer.

But the economic barriers, when all costs are factored in, it’s actually quite a lot cheaper. So let’s say you buy — for an adult, too, even or a parent who wants to go alongside their kid, depending upon your state. So in Virginia, for instance, to buy a hunting license, if you’re over the age of 18, it’s like $23 for the full calendar year. And if you have to buy another $23 one to go deer, turkey, and hunting for something else. So at the outset it’s about $46 for the whole year. And in your deer tag, you’re allowed to get up to six deer for the whole season. Whether it’s archery, rifle, muzzle loader, things that sort. So if you are lucky to get maybe two deer a season and you break down that $46 cost, that’s pretty cheap per poundage compared to buying meat at the store.

And you’re going to get a lot of meat. You can get on average from a deer when it’s fully processed, I think 25, 30, 35 pounds, that’s a lot of meat. And that type of equivalent that you get from the store is going to be like double, triple quadruple. Of course, given how expensive it is. And even going, let’s say here in Virginia, and I know every other state has options like this. So in the summertime when the trout fishing is kind of dead, I go to a trout farm, I pay maybe $4.50, $5 per pound to get trout compared to, let’s say Wegmans, where they charge $15 a pound. You can save a lot of money, you have to drive a little bit out to go to this farm. It’s like two hours from Northern Virginia. But for kids and adults, there’s no license fee there. So every place is different. Check the regulations of course. But for instance, a lot of trout farms in the summertime or from the open from the spring to early fall, they’ll just charge you a nominal fee per pound for the fish. Kids love it. It’s a great experience to —

Julie Gunlock:

Do they process it? Do they process it there? How do you get it processed?

Gabriella Hoffman:

They could. Yah, for a fish, sometimes they will for additional charges, they will gut your fish and filet it. Or if you have someone like my dad there, he can teach you how to do it and you can take that skill home.

Julie Gunlock:

I had a feeling the minute I asked that question, you were going to go, “Well, you just do it yourself. You just learn.”

Gabriella Hoffman:

Someone can teach you.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s part of you’re not at a Wegmans, you’re not getting the nice Cryovac-ed package of fish. These are skills to be learned. But I would imagine it tastes so good when you catch this fish, you process this fish yourself, and you cook this fish. That is incredibly rewarding.

Gabriella Hoffman:

It is.

Julie Gunlock:

I mean, it’s interesting. A couple years ago, an author named Julie Lythcott-Haims wrote a book called How to Raise an Adult. Great title because that’s our goal. If you’re a Catholic, you might say your goal is to raise a saint. But the point is is we’re all trying to raise these children to carry on in life and be contributing members to society and potentially support their own families someday. And this author that I referenced was a admissions officer at Stanford University, and she wrote this book; it was actually kind of a tough book in some ways to read.

This was pre-COVID, way pre-COVID, like 10 years before COVID. And she had talked about over the years, in her 19-year career, how she saw that kids were less and less able to take care of themselves. They didn’t have these skills. She talked about laundry and cooking simple simple, simple, meals like a meat sauce or an omelet or an egg. And she said they didn’t have… And also the ability to keep eye contact, introduce themselves in a proper way. And these are kids that are entering their freshman year of college, which these are skills that should be taught. And so it’s depressing to me that it looks like it’s not just these outdoor skills that parents are failing to teach their kids. And I also include in some of these outdoor skills, like how to change a tire. I know it’s not the same, but it’s sort of the survivalist thing.

It’s being able to do things on your own. And she talked about just simple things that kids couldn’t do, and it added to their anxiety. So it’s interesting that with the ramping up of climate alarmism, which I think has really been sort of something we’ve seen the last decade, along with very basic skill sets not being taught for kids to just survive modern life. It really is a situation that kids weren’t in great shape before COVID. And so now post-COVID, we’ve got a true disaster on our hands. I see outdoor, I see teaching your children some of these skills, getting them outside, understanding true conservation as maybe one of the ways parents can fight their way out of this mess. I think independence, giving kids a feeling of independence, of their own independence, is one way to solve that. What are your thoughts on that?

Gabriella Hoffman:

I think that’s a great remedy, and we’ve already started to see that reeling in from the pandemic. There was actually, interestingly enough, a huge surge of people including kids going fishing and hunting at the height of the pandemic, even though certain governors tried to shut down opportunities to go boating, to go hunting. Not every governor, thankfully, followed through on that really misguided policy. But there were even attempts to restrict people from going outdoors, which was asinine to me.

Julie Gunlock:

Which by the way, many of these governors got reelected.

Gabriella Hoffman:

They did, unfortunately. And being outdoors is the ultimate social distancing because you naturally keep six feet apart from people or more. But yes, I think fostering independence in these kids, and I think we’ll start to see more kids start to go outdoors, and maybe it’ll start to be discussed in different circles, just learning about the surroundings. We’ve seen people even not only just fishing and hunting, they’re going at historic levels to national parks and public lands. And so people are, for the first time I think, in ever — maybe I was really lucky that my parents were very adamant about us going to national parks.

So even beyond my foray to Sequoia and Yosemite, we would go on road trips to Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Grand Teton, all these different places. And I met people here on the East Coast since moving here who said, “I’ve never been to any of these places.” And I was shocked. But the COVID pandemic actually got people interested in exploring America’s natural beauty, sometimes to the detriment of crowds. Of course, that’s going to happen anyway. And weirdly enough, the Biden administration says we have too many people going to national parks. We have to restrict these options, which is bizarre to me. So that’s what public lands are supposed to be available to people. People, however, do have to be very, very respectful. Don’t get close to the animals, don’t be an idiot, of course.

Julie Gunlock:

The yearly viral video of a woman being tossed in the air by a buffalo is something I look forward to. I mean, of course I don’t want them to be injured, but boy, people really are stupid sometimes when they get close to wildlife.

Gabriella Hoffman:

They absolutely are.

Julie Gunlock:

Because they don’t understand. They have what my father calls a Disney version of this animal.

Gabriella Hoffman:

Yes, the Disneyfication of wildlife. And I think teaching kids early on that what they portray in Disney programming is not reality. That they may be cute and cuddly, but if you, heaven forbid, encountered them in the wild, they could rip you to shreds. So that’s not instilled in a lot of kids, but I think some parents do instill in their children a reverence for wildlife, a practical view of how you view your relationship in the ecosystem with certain wildlife. So in more rural areas, or let’s say in Jackson, Wyoming, or Billings, Montana, where have you, in these smaller cities, kids are bear aware and kids are aware of wolves and they know what happens. And if they live on a ranch, in a farm, they have to deal with these predators coming in and potentially preying on their livestock. And Northern Virginia recently, I don’t know if you saw, there was a black bear roaming through Tyson’s Corner in Reston, and it was really exciting to see people’s reactions to it. Thankfully, the bear was not euthanized, it wasn’t posing a danger to anyone. But people are starting to see wildlife come closer to them, and maybe they’ll understand like, “Okay, it’s not this Disney view of bears, it’s not Boo Boo or whoever, it’s not Smokey the Bear coming in.” These can be dangerous animals if provoked.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Well, I want to sort of add onto that a little bit. The sort of corollary to that is people have, and especially children today, are being taught that not only… Now look, I think you see a gun on the ground, you should walk away and find an adult, right? Don’t touch it, like all this good. But instead, kids are being taught now that guns are just 100% bad. There’s never a reason for a gun. Guns are just an evil thing, just a tool for murdering, for harming, for hurting, which I think is really dangerous. And my children, we have taken them out to the range, they know how to shoot, they understand gun safety. Eddie the eagle and some of the NSSF resources for parents are all very useful, and I want to ask you about that as well.

But this is, especially with the Parkland and the different school shootings and the rise of Moms Demand Action and every town which just lie about the data and have created this culture of snitching on people who have guns and isolating people who have guns and making it just absolutely verboten, that’s dangerous because I think many of those kids don’t even understand what gun safety is. What gun storage is, the proper use of guns, how a gun is used to protect, and also the fact that guns can be used to protect. So give us your thoughts on that over… You’ve been doing this for so long, you’ve seen sort of this change. How do you feel about that, and how do we introduce the proper use of guns to kids today?

Gabriella Hoffman:

I had heard from people, different people who’ve been in this country longer than my family, that it actually used to be accepted wisdom that kids would learn how to properly handle guns in school. And when I heard that, I was a little surprised because maybe having lived in Southern California and definitely more blue outposts in my lifetime, it was never discussed. But I know probably 50, 60 years ago, there was actual gun safety taught in schools. But I’ve heard from people who live in more rural outposts that actually this is still being taught, how to properly handle a gun. Same with also hunting skills taught in, let’s say South Dakota, Wyoming, even some parts of the South, you do see some courses available. It’s not as prevalent as it used to be, kind of like with a home ec or some of those other, learning how to obviously change a tire, how to do mechanics. Vocational trades are not often incorporated into schools, and I think you could even count gun safety as part of learning how to… like a vocation because it also involves blacksmithing and all that type of stuff. But I think the aforementioned groups you talk about have tried to paint firearms usage in a totally negative light. And for much of this country’s existence, firearms are used for self-defense purposes and also to hunt. It’s not about hunting. I know that’s a common refrain that our side likes to use, but it is true. It’s a small portion of hunting, but it’s about self-actualization, protecting your family, making sure that you’re able to defend yourself and when not to use it.

Because kind of going back to what you said about these rise mass shootings or these perceptions of more mass shootings and these horrible incidences occurring, the two most recent events, the horrible shooting in UVA and also the University of Idaho massacre that occurred, just these kids who have these very, let’s say distraught livelihoods or something deep-seated, some evil deep-seated in them, and they have to use violent tools. In the case of Idaho, it was a knife, I believe it was knifing. And then in the case of UVA it was a handgun. So why are these kids being taught that you have to use these violent means because you’re jealous or you’re unhappy that someone said something? You don’t resort to violence if someone said something mean to you. Who’s conditioning these kids to behave like this? This is not something the NRA, NSSF, or the gun industry preaches. They say that these are very dangerous weapons when in the wrong hands. We have to police ourselves. We have to be disciplined, we have to know what the safety rules are.

Julie Gunlock:

And all you have to do is, actually, when I bought my shotgun — I wanted to buy a shotgun for hunting and skeet and trap — and I went in and, man, when you see them handle these guns, guns when they’re handing it over to you, and if you go over to a range, my goodness, the steps and the safety procedures.

Gabriella Hoffman:

It’s not as easy to procure as everyone makes it out to be.

Julie Gunlock:

No. But also, you can see people who deal daily with firearms, it is what Biden say, well what did John Pierre recently say? Top of the head or top of the mind. Anyway, I’m sorry, but there’s this phrase, it’s like it’s the first thing in your mind is safety. And so I often feel like people who make these pronouncements that it’s so easy and they’re not around guns much and don’t see the care with which those in the gun community and gun ownership, gun ranges, that kind of in sports really do practice gun safety. It’s the top of mind. That’s what I was trying to think of.

Gabriella Hoffman:

Yeah, top of mind. I’ve been around actually a lot of parents from different states, and even here in Virginia, who’ve taught their kids from an early age how to properly handle guns, when not to touch them, why this is off limits, and these kids are going to be better suited for adult life because they know the parameters, they know the four safety rules, they know when to use a gun, when not to use. The guns are properly stored, and there’s discipline that is ingrained into these young kids. Same with their fishing skills, when not to touch something, when not to rummage through a closet, when not to handle things when they’re not allowed to handle things. So parents do still instill in these kids proper handling of firearms or different weapons that are used for outdoor activities or self-defense purposes. And I think we’re going to see more and more parents because of the rising crime happening all over across the United States and here in our area.

Julie Gunlock:

And the increase in mentally ill people, I mean, since COVID. I wanted to touch on one other shooting. There was the UVA shooting recently. It bothered me so much because, first of all, UVA is a proud gun-free zone. But apparently the guy, that didn’t have any effect on the guy doing the shooting who just went on and kept shooting. I mean, as if he is going to see a sign that says gun-free zone and he is going to say, “Got to go put it back in my car.” Right? I mean this is nonsense, but what that gun-free zone…. So on the news, I was actually doing the radio that morning, and on the news was UVA is in lockdown, kids are being asked to stay in their rooms, and I’m like, “None of these kids have a firearm for self-defense because they’re not allowed to bring on campus.”

And so all I can think of is, and the resistance, a sort of related issue is some teachers want to arm themselves in the schools and be trained if there is a mass shooter and with a high-powered weapon and they want to be able to carry a side arm or some sort of way to defend themselves. And there is such resistance to that, but it’s a gun-free zone. And so we’re letting these people be sitting ducks instead of training them to defend themselves and the children in their classrooms. It’s maddening. What are your thoughts on that?

Gabriella Hoffman:

It is, and we’ve seen just tragedy after tragedy of these individuals and teachers being sitting targets. And that’s not to victim blame whatsoever. And a lot of them say that after the fact they wish that someone was there who was properly trained. But the problem is the supposed properly trained people, say in the case of Uvalde, that horrific shooting, they weren’t there. They weren’t aware, and they were not prepared. So obviously nobody is saying that you can’t have properly trained people in these settings. And I hope at some point, if Virginia is able to get a full general assembly that is more favorable to the pro-Second Amendment position, I think Governor Youngkin could probably be open to putting a policy into place that allows schools to selectively say — universities included — we would allow teachers at minimum, if not —

Julie Gunlock:

Personnel.

Gabriella Hoffman:

Certain personnel at UVA to carry, still to prevent these tragedies from happening. I think he would be open to that if we had a general assembly that reflected that position. We’re not there yet. But I think Virginia, I mean, we still have a very vibrant gun culture here. I think there is still an attitude, and I think if you make the case to our residents, I think people would say, “Yeah, I’d rather that than these kids be vulnerable to attack again.” So I mean, each state tackles it differently. I know different states allow conceal carry not only of teachers, but sometimes students.

I think in Florida or no, in Texas, it was allowed. And there so far has not been any increase in mass shootings at universities to my knowledge. So they allow, I think concealed carry in certain universities, and you don’t see crime rising on those universities when those policies are allowed. So something to be said there of those policies that are often fearmongered. But I think you even see attitudes shifting in favor of concealed carry. There was one gun control study or one study on guns, rather, that had such lopsided findings on gun attitudes. It showed people supported more gun control, but they simultaneously supported people conceal carrying, which I don’t know what was wrong with the methodology, the phrasing of the question so that you get such disparity.

Julie Gunlock:

I think even people don’t understand the terminology.

Gabriella Hoffman:

I think that’s where it comes down to —

Julie Gunlock:

I think there is such deep ignorance on, we have raised now two generations of people who don’t understand the words. Don’t understand the terminology. I did not grow up in a gun culture. My dad grew up in Idaho and he hunted — his youth was filled with that — but he didn’t really enjoy it as a child. And so he didn’t take me or my sister hunting. Although we did do skeet and trap and I still do, and I love it. But when I came to DC and started paying attention to these issues, it was hard for me to understand the terminology. I really had to pay attention and teach myself.

And I’m still certainly not as knowledgeable as you or Laura Carno or some of the other folks that focus on these issues at IW. So this is why these podcasts and these conversations are so important. I do have to let you go, but I want to talk just one last thing about resources. You’re just a gold mine; you’re going to get an email after this because I do want to —

Gabriella Hoffman:

I look forward to it.

Julie Gunlock:

I want to explore a little bit more of these things. Are there any other… I know we’ve mentioned some things on this podcast. Are there any other resources that didn’t get mentioned that you think parents should know about?

Gabriella Hoffman:

Absolutely. There is lots of different programs. There’s like field-to-fork programs. So I think this also includes kids too. So if you want to learn how to hunt, you can sign up for this field-to-fork program that is usually held by different state wildlife agencies, and you can learn on the outset how to hunt, how to field dress, how to process. There are lots of kid-adjacent programs that are available too in different states and even private entities like nonprofits; all of them will offer some sort of like kids youth hunts. Some organizations offer kids youth hunts and they’re for a fraction of the cost that you typically find of hunts. And there’s just so much at the disposal, so I think I can’t list every single option here. The email is going to be, I think, helpful to you and your listeners, Julie, but there is so much available, and the fact that they haven’t been tapped fully by parents yet is astounding to me.

So I’m hoping through this podcast and through pushing this out there more, I hope more and more parents, even if they have no proximity to these activities, say, “You know what? I want my kids to be resourceful. I want them to know their surroundings. I don’t want them to be afraid of wildlife. I don’t want them to be ignorant of where their food comes from. I’m going to try to sign them up for these programs.” They’re really cost-effective even in these high inflationary times.

And like I said, if you befriend someone locally, your neighbor has a lot of land or something of that nature, oftentimes people who are wanting to continue these traditions will say, “You know what, why don’t you come onto my property? I’m going to teach you how to hunt. I’m going to get you retrofitted for this. Let’s take your kid outdoors. Let’s teach them how to fish.” And if you’re in the DC area, my dad and I can help kids who want to learn how to fish, learn how to fish properly. We like to do little informal clinics, and I’ve actually taught kids of Navy Seals how to fish too. It was really fun to do fishing clinics. So people like me do exist.

Julie Gunlock:

Speaking of your dad, you just mentioned your dad, I feel like it’s a whole nother I would love to talk to. I’d love for you to come back on. You mentioned that your family is from Lithuania, your parents were escapees of the Soviet Union. That’s like, I always say, it’s a whole nother Oprah show because it really is. I’d love to talk to you about that. I’d love to talk to you about —

Gabriella Hoffman:

Education. Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes, yes. So we have lots more to talk about. And we will, when we post this podcast on the IW website, we will make sure to include some resources that Gabriella has mentioned here, that you can get more information about these activities. So Gabriella, thank you so much for joining us. I’m going to go sit down on my deck. I feel like I need to get some fresh air after this. And the look at the beautiful fall leaves still falling. So thanks for inspiring me and —

Gabriella Hoffman:

Anytime. I would love to talk more about this. I just scratched the surface. So anytime you want me to come back on to talk about this, I will give you all the resources and we can chat more. But thank you so much, Julie, an honor to talk to you in this capacity.

Julie Gunlock:

Great. Thanks for coming on.