On this week’s episode, we focus on the efforts by Independent Women’s Forum and others to protect female-only athletics. Increasingly, we watch as female athletes around the country are forced to compete against boys and men, and so today we have a former D1 athlete joining us to talk about what it means for women’s participation and women’s records if we do not have equal opportunities.
Megan Kaltenbach Burke is a Colorado resident, mother to two daughters, and Independent Women’s Network chapter leader in Denver. Megan was a standout track performer in high school, winning 15 Class 5A State Championships, and her efforts earned her a scholarship to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where she won two NCAA Championships, set the American Record, and earned her degree in Journalism. Megan has been an outspoken advocate against masking our children during the COVID pandemic and fighting for fairness in women’s sports.
TRANSCRIPT
Beverly Hallberg:
And welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg. And on today’s episode, we focus on the efforts by Independent Women’s Forum and others to protect female only athletics. Increasingly, we are seeing female athletes around the country being forced to compete against boys and men, and we have a former D1 athlete joining us to talk about what it means for women’s participation and women’s records if we do not have equal opportunity.
Megan Burke is a Colorado resident, mother to two daughters and Independent Women’s Network chapter leader in Denver. We’re going to talk to her a little bit about that. She was a standout track performer in high school, winning 15 class 5A state championships, and her efforts earned her a scholarship to the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, where she won two NCAA championships, set the American record, and earned her degree in journalism. Megan has been an outspoken advocate against masking our children during the COVID pandemic and fighting for fairness in women’s sports as she’s going to be discussing today. Megan, thank you so much for joining us.
Megan Burke:
Beverly. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to talk on this topic in women’s sports and what it meant to me. Like you said, I went to the University of North Carolina and ran track and cross country, but I’m really a lifelong athlete. I started playing sports, competitive sports in fourth grade where I tried out for my soccer team, and we ended up winning state in my soccer team as well. And I built lifelong friends in my sport. And actually, in high school is when I transitioned to running and again, made a lot of friends, gained a ton of confidence. It pretty much shaped me as a person, my athletics and building confidence through my athletics and then being able to then get a full scholarship to college based on my winnings and based on my hard work and built so much of who I am.
And so now when things are changing in the women’s sports field, I have to come out and speak about it because competing against males in a female sport, that would’ve changed my whole career path, my life, where I went to school and really changed things for me now, and also would have been very defeating mentally and like I said, would have changed my path in so many different ways because I am who I am because of my athletics and my sports. Like I said, it builds a confidence, it builds hard work, and you build relationships through teammates and like I said, hard work and effort and all those things.
Beverly Hallberg:
And you talk about the confidence that you had through competing. What do you think the confidence would’ve been like for you if you were competing as women are today, which is against men who obviously have physical advantages, they’re stronger, there are biological differences, there’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just the reality of things. What do you think that would’ve done to your confidence?
Megan Burke:
Truly, I’m not even sure if I would’ve kept competing because it’s so unfair that I’m not positive I would’ve kept at it. It would’ve been mentally so frustrating. It’s not just you go out there and just run a race. I’m working five days a week, hours every day on the track, pushing myself to where you feel physically ill because you’re running so hard and trying so hard. And putting in that effort and knowing I was competing against a male in my sport would have for me, “Why am I even doing this? This is so unfair.” Regardless if you’re taking supplements for the testosterone, men, it’s a fact. Their muscles are bigger, their lung capacity is greater, their bone structure is stronger. These are things that you can’t change no matter how many hormone suppressants you take. So for me, I’m not even sure if I would have kept going with it because I would have felt so defeated.
I’m working so hard, and this is so unfair, why would I keep doing it? And my confidence level, I might not have gotten a full scholarship to the University of North Carolina. I might not have won any of those things. And it changes my whole trajectory in life if I was competing against a male in female sports. And running is one of those sports where it’s a pretty obvious difference. I think they put out a fact in 2017 that 5,000 male athletes, including some under the age of 18, ran 400-meter times that were faster than the personal best of Allyson Felix, and those that of you that don’t know who Allyson Felix is. She’s one of our most decorated track athletes in the United States. I think she’s won more than seven gold medals, a bunch of silver medals set all the world records. So that’s just to show you like 5,000 men ran faster than her personal best, and she’s our most decorated female track athlete, you could argue.
Beverly Hallberg:
I’m glad you talk about the hard work that you put into this because even though I assume it’s something that you really enjoyed, and you talk about the benefits even socially in addition to confidence, but I’m assuming part of the reason why you pushed yourself so hard in high school was hopefully that opportunity to get into a good school, to get a scholarship to go is so much about female sports. It’s not just, “Oh, this is a fun thing to do,” but for so many women, this is about their career.
Megan Burke:
Correct. It’s a fun thing to do, obviously being in high school and being in high school sports, but you know what else is fun is winning, putting all that hard work on the line and running the fastest, running the fastest time in the country, winning the race that you go run at nationals and you’re going against another girl that’s been running really well that year and you’re head-to-head and you win all that hard work you put in. So putting in all that hard work and competing against someone who naturally is going to be better based on their muscle, lung capacity is a big thing that no one ever talks about. Their lungs are bigger when you’re running the lung capacity, their musculature. And I just read something the other day that men also have a higher rate of metabolizing and releasing energy, which is interesting as well, because that can’t change based on a hormone suppressant.
But yes, I love the competing, I love being with people, but a lot of it is about working really hard. So you, like you said, get a full scholarship, be able to compete as a Division 1 one athlete. That’s a big deal. And for me, if even one high school female, Colorado female is having to deal with this, that’s too many because these informative years when you’re in high school, this really builds who you are. And so I would hate for a female athlete to be working really hard and not coming up with the results that she should be getting because of a male athlete competing in her sport. It’s so unfair and honestly, it’s hard to even think about because it truly doesn’t make any sense to me.
And to me, you’re going against, someone’s cheating. When I was in college and we won NCAAs, my relay. Immediately, someone comes up to you, stays right by you, and you’re taken to the bathroom, and they watch you go to the bathroom in a cup because they have to test your levels to make sure you’re not taking testosterone, things like that to make sure it’s an even fair playing field.
So I find it very interesting now the lines feel so blurred. I’m like, “Wait, you guys used to test us to make sure we’re not enhancing with testosterone or other things and now we’re allowing males to compete against us whose levels are still never going to probably be the same as ours. Not to mention the other stuff we’ve already discussed, the muscles, the lung capacity, all that stuff.” But is their testosterone even at our level? And based on what I’ve read in a few studies, I believe there was a journal of endocrine practice that I read, and they did some studies on the testosterone, and I think they took 98 males that were transitioning to females and test their estrogen, and I think only one fourth of them, and they were taking the suppressants. Only one fourth of them achieved female estrogen levels.
Beverly Hallberg:
And I think that’s such an interesting point because one of the things we hear, and I would point out the NCAA that has talked about this as well, they say, “Well, we do test levels, and if somebody is transitioning from male to female, they have to have certain levels in order to compete.” So are you just saying that first of all, the science doesn’t back up, that there’s enough of a change? Or do you think that they’re actually fibbing, what takes place?
Megan Burke:
Well, I think the human body is a very interesting thing. So what is the level that you have to have? It just gets too murky, I feel, with the levels, that doesn’t make them a female, that doesn’t make it fair. We’ve discussed the muscle mass and actually fat content, women have more body fat. That’s just a fact. Men are stronger, men can jump 15 to 20% higher than women. These are facts. And the fact that we’re basing this off of one test that I don’t know what is the level to be a female for your estrogen, we don’t know, it’s too murky and it’s probably still above what most females are, but it’s unfair. This is not fair at all. And just because you’re taking one level that doesn’t make you a female.
Beverly Hallberg:
And one of the things, I just want to lay some of the groundwork for this, just to backtrack a little bit, the reason why we do have men competing against women is that President Biden, when he took office, one of the first executive orders that he signed was saying that schools had to be required to let biological male athletes play on women’s teams and compete against female athletes. So this is something that’s been in effect close to two years, about a year and a half that we’ve seen this. And so that’s why we’ve seen this increase in males competing against women. And I was just curious, when you first heard that there was this change, what did you think?
Megan Burke:
To be honest, I still can’t actually comprehend and believe it because it’s so unfair. And the fact that more women and more athletes, more feminists aren’t speaking out about it also to me is mind boggling. This seems very black and white to me as an athlete. And it seems, why aren’t women in the athletic field or more feminists speaking about this? Because this is very unfair to women. This is going to change women’s athletics. What happens when the male who’s competing in female sports breaks all the track records, and we can never get them back? This is a big problem. And it’s sad that the NCAA hasn’t come out about this. It’s sad that it doesn’t feel like anyone’s defending women’s sports–
Beverly Hallberg:
Do you think that there’s a fear factor there? Because I’m sure you have heard this as you’ve spoken out. I think there’s a lot of fear of being canceled, of being called discriminating. Somebody who’s transphobic in speaking out against this because people who do get labeled those terms. Do you think a lot of it is the fear that’s behind the canceling that takes place?
Megan Burke:
I do. I do think there’s a lot of fear. I do think there’s a lot of, people can’t speak the way they want to without getting canceled or free speech being limited. Nowadays, you can’t say certain things on Twitter or wherever. Now you can more, but you could be taken off the platform if you say something. People’s jobs, that’s another thing. People are afraid that if they say something potentially at work, something they could be even fired. So it is really sad that they feel like they can’t come out. But with this particular issue, I don’t really feel like there’s a lot of controversy, but I didn’t feel like there was a lot of controversy with COVID either. And there is, I didn’t feel like this is political. I feel like this is women’s sports, and if we don’t fight for women’s rights and women’s sports right now, this could be, there could be 10% of males competing in women’s sports next. It could keep getting worse and worse.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, let me play devil’s advocate here because here’s a question that could come up, which is, okay, those men who identify as women who have gone through some type of transition, whether that’s just hormonal or even more than that medically, let’s say, where should they compete?
Megan Burke:
Yes, that’s a tough one. I’ve thought about that at length, and I don’t know, I’ve heard some people talk about it and say isn’t the most inclusive thing to have them be in male sports and the male athletes embrace them and be with them. But it gets really tricky when you get down to the locker room and changing even on both sides. If a female was transitioning to a male and they’re wanting to do a male sport and you’re in the locker room, it gets very confusing. So I don’t know if at some point they’ll have a transgender league, but all I know is women’s sports shouldn’t be a unisex sport, it should be women’s sports. And that’s really where I feel like women need to compete in women’s sports.
Beverly Hallberg:
And one more thing before we move on to another topic. I want to delve in with you. Is it, this was something that I was thinking about, and it fits into that term opportunities that we talked about earlier. I’m even thinking of maybe women, maybe you were one of these women who maybe came from a low-income situation and competing in women’s sports was their way to even be able to afford college to even be able to go. Did you interact with a lot of young women where sports was their answer out of poverty, their answer to the American dream?
Megan Burke:
At my school, I didn’t interact with a lot of females with that, but when on the national level, when I was competing with females all around the country, that was definitely something that they were thinking about. I need to really run good at this race. I want this college coach to see me, or if I get in the top 10, I’ll get a scholarship. And even for me, it was always a goal to get a scholarship to school because I was working really hard. And we need to think about that. These female athletes, it’s not just athletic. I think people say, “Oh, it’s just sports.”
Beverly Hallberg:
And women’s sports. I feel women’s sports are really put in this derogatory camp like, “Oh, you girls are just playing sports.”
Megan Burke:
And it’s not that. It’s so much more than that. And when I said it built me to the person I am, it did, it made me very confident. It made me be able to probably talk about this stuff, come out because I have confidence in myself. It gave me the tools to learn how to work hard. I’m now a mom of two. When you first have a baby, it’s hard. It’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of uphill challenges. There’s a lot of things. What do you think prepared me for that? Sports. What do you think prepared me for the workforce, working after college? Sports. I know how to work hard. I know how to put the time in. I know how to deal with other individuals because in sports you have teammates and sometimes you got to give and take. I believe this, you believe that.
But we need to come to a neutral position because we’re teammates. You learn how to work through a lot of things. You learn how to build friendships. And so it’s not just sports. It’s a big deal. And it’s like you said, for some people, it gets them into colleges. It gets them to be able to go to college, to go to the college they want to go to, to have opportunities. Opportunities after college, because there are jobs where people look at people’s resume and say they were a D1 athlete. They know how to work hard and potentially get that interview because of that athletic background. And these are things that people really need to think about when they’re thinking about female athletics, about how also these girls are working really hard. This isn’t just not out there chatting on the sideline. You’re putting work in every day, you’re getting out there, you’re pushing yourself hard.
And you should be able to have the benefits of those, not those taken away by a male. And he gets your spot on a team. And even for cross-country, let’s say, there’s top seven make varsity. So if that seventh girl gets beat out by a male and she doesn’t get the opportunity to run on varsity that year, which could make her really grow her confidence, really help her in other parts of her life, make her feel included in a team, which she doesn’t get that opportunity, which I feel like is completely unfair.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, I want to take a brief moment to talk to you, our listeners. You may know the Independent Women’s Forum is the leading national women’s organization dedicated to enhancing people’s freedom, opportunities and wellbeing. But did you know that we are also here to bring you, women and men on the go, the news. You can listen to our High Noon podcast, an intellectual download featuring conversations that make free society possible. Hear guests like Ben Shapiro and Dave Rubin discuss the most controversial subjects of the day. Or join us for happy hour with At The Bar where hosts Inez Stepman and Jennifer Braceras chat on the latest issues at the intersection of law, politics, and culture. You can listen to past episodes at iwf.org or search for High Noon or At The Bar in your favorite podcast app. Well, Megan, before you go, I would like to talk a little bit about you signing up for the chapter leader for Independent Women’s Network in Denver. What made you decide to move into this role of being more involved in your community?
Megan Burke:
So part of it was the women in sports and males competing in sports. Not only was I an athlete, I have two young girls, and so I am really wanting to fight for them as well because hopefully they will be into sports and I don’t want them trying and having to compete against male athletes for spots on teams and all that stuff. So I want to make sure to be fighting for my girls. And because I was an athlete, I have some insight in all that. So fighting for my girls, and also COVID really put a light on everything. For me in the education system, I was very boisterous with COVID and the masks because I felt like it wasn’t affecting children. And I felt like it was so important for kids to be in school and for them to be in school where they could learn to read and write without being covered.
Also, for them to socially interact, young kids socially interact with their facial expressions. And so I really was fighting in Colorado for the masks to get off the kids. And that’s when I really started diving into a lot of things going on in Colorado in our schools, our public schools, and the school board. I spoke in front of the school board here in Colorado and to talk to them about masking kids, because at this point we had had all the scientific data and information, and Colorado was still masking our kids. And so they left their screens black, they didn’t talk back to me. They don’t really seem to care what parents had to say. They just were going to keep masking the kids, keep closing the schools. So I started a petition. I spoke at different schools. I actually took my daughter and drove 45 minutes one way to go to a school that wasn’t masking because I thought it was that important to make sure she was able to talk to friends, be social, and COVID really put a light on a lot of things for me.
So it was a little bit of a blessing in disguise for me to learn about who was on these school boards and all that kind of stuff. I really didn’t know any of these things and I wouldn’t have known them without COVID. So I’m glad that it put a light on our education system here who was on the school board and all that stuff. So the chapters also to work on some education stuff to hopefully here in Colorado at the NCAA level and at the high school level, if you are a male and taking the hormone suppressants, you’re allowed to compete in women’s sports.
Beverly Hallberg:
And that’s why I think it’s so great about the Independent Women’s Network is it is made up of women like you who care about their communities and want to do what they can to leave a better life, a better community for their kids. Megan Burke, just want to thank you so much for your work for IWN and also for joining us on She Thinks Today.
Megan Burke:
Thank you so much. And yes, I want to say that I’m so excited and our group is so excited to partner with the Independent Women’s Forum to give us the resources and the help to make those changes. And I feel like we will. And with their support and their resources, we’re going to make a change.
Beverly Hallberg:
Well, thank you again. And thank you all for listening to us. Before you go, IWF does want you to know that we rely on the generosity of supporters like you. An investment in IWF fuels our efforts to enhance freedom, opportunity, and wellbeing for all Americans. So please consider making a small donation to IWF by visiting iwf.org/donate. That’s iwf.org/donate. And last, if you enjoyed this episode of She Thinks, do leave us a rating or review. It does help, and we’d love it if you shared this episode, so your friends can know where they can find more She Thinks. From all of us here at Independent Women’s Forum, thanks for watching.
