On this episode of The Bespoke Parenting Podcast, host Julie Gunlock talks to professor, writer, and former IWF visiting fellow (and grandmother) Marilyn Quigley about the importance of grandparents, her experience raising kids before tech, and her own challenges as a working parent in the 70s and 80s. Marilyn also shares her observations on the changing world of parenting and how fear plays far too big a role in raising kids today.
TRANSCRIPT
Julie Gunlock:
Hey, everyone. I’m Julie Gunlock, host of The Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to this program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families, themselves, and most importantly, their kids. So today, I’m speaking to my friend, Marilyn Quigley, a former visiting fellow with IWF. Great seeing you, Marilyn.
Marilyn Quigley:
Good to be here, Julie.
Julie Gunlock:
I am going to read, I’m sorry to do that, but you have such an interesting bio and I want to read it all.
Marilyn Quigley:
Oh, I don’t know.
Julie Gunlock:
Oh, you do, you do. You kind of make me just kind of feel like I should be doing more. After teaching high school for five years, Marilyn raised two boys. And by the way, I know one of Marilyn’s son. You did a great job, Marilyn, by the way.
Marilyn Quigley:
I told him I would not be mentioning his name.
Julie Gunlock:
Okay. I will not mention his name. I will not mention his name. Marilyn raised two boys, one of which is named John Doe, just kidding, while writing for a curriculum publishing company. She directed her church’s children’s choir and completed her master’s degree. And then she went on to a long and very impressive career in higher education. Marilyn is a professor emerita at English, of English, rather, sorry, at Evangel … Am I saying that right? Evangel University.
Marilyn Quigley:
That’s right. Evangel University.
Julie Gunlock:
A private Christian school in Springfield, Missouri, where she taught, where for over 30 years, she served as director of composition in the school’s writing center, and taught literature, composition, and creative writing. I want to take a pause here and say that Marilyn was one of the very few fellows we’ve ever had at IWF who needed no editing. She always would produce these perfect opinion pieces. We were all very impressed with what she wrote. And we will ask Marilyn at the end of where people could read some of your writing.
Marilyn’s published books include Hell Frozen Over: The Battle of the Bulge; Journey to Elsewhere, a historical novel for children about the underground railroad; and My War at Windsor School, a coming-of-age novel set during World War II—which I will be ordering all of these. She has also written children’s musicals, poetry, articles, short stories, devotionals, and a number of opinion pieces. We were lucky to have her at IWF writing opinion pieces as well. Of prime importance to her is family. She lives with her husband. She has two sons and a daughter-in-law and three grandchildren.
Marilyn Quigley:
Daughters-in-law.
Julie Gunlock:
Daughters-in-law, look, she’s already correcting me. She’s editing me. See, she can’t help herself.
Marilyn Quigley:
Can’t leave one of them out. They’re both great.
Julie Gunlock:
Okay, yes. Of course, daughters-in-law and three grandchildren. Marilyn and her husband of almost 62 years, a retired illustrator and magazine designer, live in Springfield, Missouri. However, she can be found on cruises about every other year, which is so nice. Thanks for coming on, Marilyn.
Marilyn Quigley:
I’m happy to be here, Julie.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, I’m really excited that you’re here. I loved working with you when you were a fellow at IWF. We wrote some important pieces. But really, I want to pivot a little bit away from policy and talk more about your experience. You are a grandmother, so you have three grandchildren. And of course, if you’re a grandmother, you were a parent at one point.
Marilyn Quigley:
I was, still am.
Julie Gunlock:
I always ask my guest, the first question I tend to ask is if they could label their parenting style. Today, you know that, not so much I think when you were raising your kids, but today, everybody has a label. Right? Are you a parent? There’s soft parenting, there’s gentle parenting, there’s hover parenting, there’s free-range parenting. If you were to look back and sort of label yourself, what would it be? What kind of parent were you?
Marilyn Quigley:
Well, I’m not sure that my boys, if they see this, would agree with this, but I feel as though I was a fairly strict parent in wanting my children to meet certain expectations. But on the other hand, I hope that I was loving. I certainly felt loving toward them, and reasonable, reasonable in those expectations because things do go wrong in parenting because I don’t know anyone personally who has never had a problem. And the kids don’t come with a manual. You wish they had, but they don’t. So it’s a lot of trial and error as you’re going through it. I don’t think it matters which era you’re living in.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, part of the point of this podcast is to tell people that they need to sort of throw out those labels and they need to throw out the guidebook. And yet, I still think it is interesting to hear how people, when they look back at their parenting … Look, I’m at a point now, I’ve got one preteen and two teens—I can’t even believe it—that I’m starting to look back on how I did things. I think we all feel it would be nice if we could do a little bit of a redo.
Marilyn Quigley:
That’s right.
Julie Gunlock:
But I do think it’s interesting to see. And I do think it’s really interesting to talk to women like you, who are now grandparents, because they’re witnessing their own children raise kids and how that must feel. I mentioned that—I know he will go nameless, but I know your son and his wife, and they’re wonderful. And again, I mentioned that you’re now watching them raise their kids. Considering your own experience and your observations about sort of the gen X generation and raising kids, what changes have you seen in parenting these days?
Marilyn Quigley:
I have seen quite a number of changes, really, in the way parents approach their parenting. Some things are very much the same, but I think it goes without saying that technology has completely almost revamped the way parents are parenting, and in some ways, are forced to parent because we do have technology. We’re not going to get rid of it. We can’t ignore it, and it’s good in many ways. But it has brought some challenges to this generation of parents that we did not have.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, we know what those are. I mean, it’s obvious. Right? We’re talking like when you were raising your kids, you didn’t have to scream at them about the … I don’t know. I mean, there was Atari. There was.
Marilyn Quigley:
Well, they had a few things. Yes.
Julie Gunlock:
They had a few things. But I mean, it is just unbelievable the speed, the pace, the number of things, from iPads and iPhones, to video games, to the number of … For us, it was Donkey Kong and Frogger, take your choice. Right? And both were pretty safe. Now it’s gore and guts and even some sexual content on some of these things, so you’re constantly worrying about that. I always like to try to be positive when I can. What are some of the positive changes you’ve seen?
Marilyn Quigley:
Well, let’s just look at technology because it has two sides to it, Julie. The positive change that technology has brought is, I would think a lot more peace to parents when their children are out because you have to remember that when our kids went out, I mean, that was it. It was like, “Be home at whatever,” and if they’re not, you had no place to call. You do not know how fast they are driving. You don’t have those little apps on the phone, whatever parents have. So I would think that has been a good thing. I wish we could’ve had some of that.
Julie Gunlock:
It’s kind of interesting, Marilyn, because there is sort of a debate, and I’ve been a big part of this debate with that kind of tracking can sometimes go overboard. Now it’s interesting because we have a wristwatch for our sons, so if any of them … So my son is involved in a program that he’s out kind of late on weeknights, but it’s just up the road, and so he can walk home. But it still makes me nervous, him walking home at 9 o’clock at night.
Marilyn Quigley:
Well, how old is he?
Julie Gunlock:
He’s 15. He’s a little bit older, so he can—
Marilyn Quigley:
But still.
Julie Gunlock:
But still, it makes me nervous. You always worry about … I mean, I hate to say this old trope, but the whole white van thing. He’s way too old to get—
Marilyn Quigley:
Oh, I know.
Julie Gunlock:
—into a white van with puppies. But in your mind, you’re always thinking it’s the white van with puppies. He’s going to get in the car, or they’re going to offer him a cookie, and depending on how hungry he is, he’s going to get in the car.
Marilyn Quigley:
And this is what has been caused by technology again because when I was raising my children, or we were, I should say, we did it together, but we did not have 24/7 news so that we heard of every kidnapping, every whatever. I have seen such a change in the hovering parents.
Julie Gunlock:
I want to explore that a little bit with you because I really do think it’s funny that we talk about how the tracking stuff is great and we can … And I agree with you. It’s nice to have that. But why are parents so scared nowadays? We know, Marilyn, look, I know crime rates are inching up.
Marilyn Quigley:
Exactly.
Julie Gunlock:
But crime against children is way down from when we were growing up. There’s so many good things out there. Why are they so nervous?
Marilyn Quigley:
I think what happened was back when we got the 24/7 cable news and everything, we knew everything. We started knowing every single, as I said, murder, kidnapping, and parents just became completely uptight about it. I know I can remember visiting with my son and his family when the oldest grandchild was in second grade. And his mom, to her credit I want to say, was allowing him to walk the maybe three blocks to the school. And some of my friends, I told them, and it was like, “What?” It was a river of parents and kids walking. And he was right in the stream. And so I thought that was very wise. And so I just feel that that’s what’s happened; we’re just tuned into every possible thing can happen, and parents have just turned into hover, smother.
And I think that has repercussions for the children. I think our children are not as mature. They are not maturing as fast, for one thing. And for another thing, I feel as though … Well here, Julie, just think about the fact—can’t you go and look online and see what your children are doing at school? Can you do that and see about their tests, and if they turned the paper in? Isn’t that available to you?
Julie Gunlock:
Yes.
Marilyn Quigley:
We didn’t have that.
Julie Gunlock:
That’s right.
Marilyn Quigley:
I’m telling you, there’s something somewhat comforting about knowing a little bit. But knowing too much is bad. And I think that there are parents who get on and they look every day. And so the first thing the kid comes home from school is, “Why didn’t you turn that paper in?”
Julie Gunlock:
Right, right.
Marilyn Quigley:
There is a sense, yes, in which parents have to have a little bit of oversight. They do need oversight. Finding that balance, and today, I’m not sure that many, many parents have that balance.
Julie Gunlock:
That is really, really fascinating. And also, I think you’re right that parents can almost get too much information. But I think the comment you made about kids not being as mature, they’re also just not independent. And they don’t trust themselves to know their own limits because parents never let them out to test it. Well, we see so much. It’s just amazing to me when I hear these people say, “Gosh, it’s just a mystery why there’s so much anxiety out there among kids. Why is this happening?”
Marilyn Quigley:
Yeah.
Julie Gunlock:
Because—
Marilyn Quigley:
About the parents.
Julie Gunlock:
I have cited this book so many times. There’s a great book by Julie Lythcott-Haims. She wrote it about a decade ago and I reviewed it, and it still resonates with me. And the book is called How to Raise an Adult. And she talks about she was a dean of a major university for 20 years, and she said when she started, kids would make eye contact. They would stand up for themselves. They would shake hands. They would talk. And she said, “Over that 20 years, they became more and more sort of scared and mousey.” And they would let their parents … And we know this. We know this. And we know that also, when I was growing up, if I wanted to see my friend, I had to walk myself down to the tennis courts. And my friend, Melanie, would walk herself over and we’d talk, and we’d sit on the … And then we’d walk over to another friend’s house. There was no way to communicate like this on the couch with your face in it, so it’s interesting. Go on.
Marilyn Quigley:
No, I was just saying that when my kids, your age, when they were growing up, they used to phone to set a meeting with somebody. We’re going to get together. Now the phone is the meeting.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes, yes.
Marilyn Quigley:
And the friends are pretty much virtual. And virtual friendships honestly just will not do it for children. They need to have those face-to-face times away from parents, [inaudible 00:13:42] difference.
Julie Gunlock:
I agree. And it’s interesting because I think some of this advice that grandparents can offer to parents is sometimes not received. I don’t think that’s true of your situation. It certainly isn’t true of my situation. I really do value my parents’ advice on a lot of things. But it’s interesting, the Good Housekeeping Institute surveyed more than 1500 people—this was just recently, it was in…I think last year, fall of last year—about grandparent sort of parent relationships. Mainly, this was grandparents that were polled. And they found that there’s some tension between generations, understandable. They found that parents generally feel that grandparents should keep their outdated advice to themselves. In contrast, grandparents see themselves as adaptable and open to changing times.
In fact, the research revealed that 68% of today’s grandparents consider themselves cooler than their own, I love that, than their own grandparents. So they look back, they think, “How was my grandparent?” And then they think, “Hey, I’m a lot cooler.” Are you a cool grandparent? And what is your opinion of grandparenting today? There is an awful lot of parenting advice, not sure there’s a lot of grandparenting advice out there.
Marilyn Quigley:
Well, I tried to think—because I knew what we were going to be talking about—some of the things that I think grandparents can do that parents cannot. And there is, I think, a definite place for grandparents. And I’m at a disadvantage, my husband and I, because we do not live in the same town, and so we have to do it somewhat differently, and I’m very jealous of my friends who have children here and grandchildren here. And I wish we had that. So we’ve had to do some things that are different because we’re, what, 1500 miles away or whatever, and have to fly. So I think grandparents can bring a type of unconditional love. Now I’m not saying that the parents don’t have unconditional love, but it’s a little bit different from a grandparent because there’s not …
Grandparents are not the disciplinarians. We can give a little bit of casual like, “Do you think this would … ” But we’re not the disciplinarians and we shouldn’t be, so that’s just unique. For us, we can have unconditional love. We can hover and not be accused of totally controlling. You know? In other words, there’s a little bit of slack that should be given and is given, in my family, to grandparents. We can play with them. And when our kids were little, play, play, play. We would go back there, and that’s how you build those relationships: playing games, crawling around on the floor, if you can still get down there, and that kind of thing. So there’s just this unique role I think for grandparents to leave a legacy of memories.
I mean, we have a lot of memories that Nana has done in the family, like leave the sugar out of the pumpkin pie, so we do relate that and it’s fun. And I think grandkids think Nana will be here forever, Papa will be here forever, because they’re children. They won’t be, and so it’s up to us, not to them, it’s up to the grandparent to come forward and do. And we’ve had something we’ve called Camp Papa-Nan with our kids, and we’ve allowed them, not allowed, we’ve been very privileged to have them when they were 11 years old individually at our house for a week. That’s something grandparents can do. Lot of things that are very important that parents honestly don’t have the time, all the time, or the funds at their stage. We can give gifts. But I will say, if you’re going to give a pretty large gift for anything, you need to check with the parents first, but yeah.
Julie Gunlock:
Marilyn, that’s so beautiful. It’s so wonderful. I have to tell you sort of a joke between my parents and me, that I always tell my parents I wish that I had had the parents that you act … I wish you had acted like grandparents when I was growing up because I’m almost jealous of how … I mean, look, I was a pill. This is no indictment of my parents’ parenting. But they were pretty tough. And they’re so gentle with my kids. And when my kids are driving me absolutely batty, my mom will sometimes give me a look like, “Calm down, it’s fine.” And I’m like, “Oh, right, because you were so calm,” right? Like “You weren’t calm when I …”
Marilyn Quigley:
I know. It’s different.
Julie Gunlock:
But of course, it’s easy to remove yourself. And also, they don’t necessarily see it like the grinding every single day.
Marilyn Quigley:
No.
Julie Gunlock:
They might see it for a couple days, and they have a lot of patience. So she gets it and she’s really sweet about that.
Marilyn Quigley:
Gets it. You’re in a different situation, and you can be more patient. And even if on the inside, you’re not patient because the child is throwing a tantrum the way children will at times when they’re really small, you’re not responsible for correcting. And honestly, it’s pretty important, and I can’t say that I’ve been the perfect grandparent. I was not the perfect parent. But I think that it’s pretty important as a grandparent that you do know what your role is. And I’ve overstepped at times, but everything … It straightens out and so forth, so I don’t want to pretend that I have all the information and I’m coming here to say what should be done.
Julie Gunlock:
Yeah. No. And I think humility in these, I mean, that’s something that I feel so, as my kids are getting older and I am now reflecting back on when they were very little, you can’t help become more humble and sort of thoughtful about how you did, and I did the best I could. And there were lots of … I think people have to be forgiving of themselves.
Marilyn Quigley:
You really do because every parent, and I think every grandparent, at some point will look back and say, “I wish so much I had done that differently, but I can’t go back.” But I feel really fortunate that our sons have turned out, I think turned out, they’re adults. They’re 51, 54, so they are what I would want in children and what I’m very happy to have. But raising them brought a lot of stress at times because I don’t know how anybody can be a parent if you don’t admit to stress when you’re rearing, if you want to say, or raising—I like raising better even though I’m an English teacher.
Julie Gunlock:
This brings up another thought that wasn’t originally part of what I was saying. But you’re so thoughtful that now I want to ask you about kind of the influence of influencers. This is something my mom and I have touched on. My mom said, “Thank God I was parenting before Pinterest and Instagram and Facebook.” She’s like, “This bologna, people put up these pretty pictures.” And I am actually not on Instagram specifically because I know that I am vulnerable to imagery of perfection and I guilt myself constantly, so I don’t get on it. And I think that’s actually my advice to new moms. Just don’t go on those things.
What effect does that have on … Look, I know one of your daughter-in-laws, and she’s so great. And I suspect she has a lot of common sense and is practical in that way and doesn’t do that kind of stuff. But I’m sure you know people who have, or maybe your friends, their daughters sort of fall into this.
Marilyn Quigley:
Well, this, I do want to say this: my grandchildren fortunately did not have phones until they were 13. Now that is pretty late compared to what most people are doing, handing out the phones. I’ve seen kids five and six years old with their phones.
Julie Gunlock:
And let me tell, you around here where I live, and I know one of your kids … My God, it’s like at birth, they hand them a phone.
Marilyn Quigley:
Oh, yeah. Get the phone. So I was very happy to know that that was what Brian … Well, I wasn’t supposed to say his name.
Julie Gunlock:
We’ll cut that out. We’ll cut that out.
Marilyn Quigley:
Don’t cut that out, Julie. He won’t care. But what he and his wife decided with that, and they had to buck a stream. So you talk about influencers, and that’s one of the problems of giving children technology too early, is that they’re going to be influenced by people you may not want them to be influenced by. And I’m going to tell you who the most prolific, I’m not sure that’s the word, but the strongest influencer of our boys was growing up, and it was their grandfather. My father was the influencer. There are things I am pretty sure that they might have got caught up in and done, and who knows what all they did. I mean, I wasn’t there all the time. I wasn’t a hover mother. We didn’t have phones and all that.
But except that, Papaw, it would disappoint Papaw because he was in their lives. Fortunately, he lived right up the road. And so they could … Have to say, just as an influencer, let me tell you this. One of our kids would go every Saturday night up to Papaw’s and watch television with him. And I said, “You know, I think that is so sweet that you’re going to see Papaw every … You want to watch TV with him.” And this son said, and you know him, he said, “Oh, I’m not going to watch TV with Papaw.” And I said, “Well, what are you doing?” He said, “I’m going to watch him laugh and laugh with him.”
Julie Gunlock:
Oh, God. I’m going to cry.
Marilyn Quigley:
I know.
Julie Gunlock:
That’s so lovely.
Marilyn Quigley:
And that is, you just do not know as grandparents, what you are giving your grandchildren.
Julie Gunlock:
Yeah. Well, we’re going to take a break here so I can wipe my eyes. I will tell you, the reason that resonates with me so much is because my father is very, very involved in my children’s lives and is so important to each of them.
Marilyn Quigley:
That’s right.
Julie Gunlock:
And he teaches them so much. I mean, he really thinks it’s important that kids know how to change a tire and how to … And my husband is sort of equal in this, in teaching them things. But the love, the admiration they have for their grandfather, I think you’re right, it really keeps them kind of on the straight and narrow. If I say, “I’m calling Papa,” we call my dad Papa as well, that’s a serious moment. So I value that personally, but I think that is so great, and why people nowadays … I think there’s been some troubling developments, politics has gotten so tribal and vicious. And you have people not speaking to their parents, or not letting their children around their parents if their politics are different. And I don’t want this to sort of go … We don’t have to go deep into this, but COVID also. People’s differences on COVID. And it really has lingered for a long time.
I really understand in the deep scary part when COVID first hit, I get it. I remember we went over to my parents’ house, and we sat on opposite sides of this deck. And we wore masks, and I wouldn’t let my parents near us. So I get that, but it was really amazing reading the pieces really far into post-vaccine, where people were not allowing their parents to be around. I want to hear from the grandparent side of it about how important it is that … It’s not just important for the children, it’s important for the grandparents to have family relationships and attention, and be attended to. And I think we saw a lot of that falling off during COVID. Speak to that. What does it mean to really … Obviously, you’re a very active part of your family and you see your grandchildren and have relationships with them. Why do parents need to understand that it’s important for their parents, not just their kids?
Marilyn Quigley:
It’s hard to say the value of grandchildren. And I really don’t think any parent can ever understand until he or she becomes a grandparent, what it means to have those little lives in your life, and what it means to us as we are growing older. And yes, I have a full life, obviously, and my husband does too. But we will drop anything for those children. And I even allowed, let me tell you … Do I look like a person who would like to ride in a wheelchair? Do I look like that? No.
But right after Thanksgiving, we had to change because we couldn’t go at Thanksgiving. We had to go the day later. And I took that, even though I was getting over COVID; I wasn’t contagious anymore. But I was weak, couldn’t walk as well. And I allowed myself, and my husband allowed it, too, to be placed in a wheelchair and raced through the airport with a guy yelling, “Out of the way, wheelchair.” And why did I do that? Because I wanted to be there to see my granddaughter in The Nutcracker that night. That’s why.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes.
Marilyn Quigley:
Otherwise, it wouldn’t have been that day we would’ve gone. But that was so important to her to have us there, so important to us. So those children, they’re the kids we don’t have to discipline. We can just love them. And we just rejoice in being able to do that. And so it’s making me sad that I don’t live closer, but I don’t; that’s the reality of it. But we end up seeing them many, many times in their lives. They are 13, 16, and 18.
Julie Gunlock:
That’s lovely. That’s lovely. Well, listen, the thing is that is the good thing about technology. I remember when my parents were living in Illinois, when my children were really tiny—they did move to Winchester, Virginia, but when they were really tiny and living in Illinois, I used to set up sort of a Zoom while they were eating breakfast. And honestly, my father would be eating breakfast, and then my kids would be eating, and sometimes they wouldn’t talk all time, but it was just the presence. And we can all look at that as tremendous.
I remember I didn’t have much of a relationship. My father’s job had us traveling all over. We even lived in Korea, South Korea for a while. So we didn’t have a really strong relationship or any presence of my grandparents. And because of technology, we can, so we can thank technology for that.
Marilyn Quigley:
Absolutely. If it were not for … FaceTime is what we use, and so many times, our granddaughter has said … You get this little text, “Nana, you want to FaceTime?” Are you kidding me? I would drop everything for a FaceTime. Boys are not so much, I don’t think, to instigate those things. It doesn’t mean they don’t love you. It’s just the difference. I think sometimes gender maybe a little bit. I don’t know.
Julie Gunlock:
As you know, Marilyn, I have three boys. And I’m fully convinced I will be ignored for a good while here once they go off to college because I think young girls kind of are a little bit better about staying in touch with their mom. So I’m steeling myself for that when that happens.
Marilyn Quigley:
Yeah.
Julie Gunlock:
Go ahead.
Marilyn Quigley:
I was going to say grandparents have to steel themselves for something too. And I knew this would happen, and it does happen. And that is when they become teenagers, their friends and their activities really take precedence over grandparents. I mean, we used to arrive and they were jumping up and down and coming down to the bedroom in the morning. Well, now they’ve learned that’s probably not really cool, so they don’t do that. And they’re happy to see us, but you have to understand as a grandparent, things will change. It does not mean they don’t love you. It doesn’t mean they’ve changed in that way. It means that they are in the normal stage of life where friends and activities are very, very important.
Julie Gunlock:
Honestly, this has been just a joy to talk to you. Just also personally, it makes me think a lot of my parents and the close relationship that we have and the influence that they’ve had. Your grandkids are so lucky. And I’m just thrilled to talk to you. But we haven’t really scratched the surface. I have about 17 more questions that I was supposed to ask you that I never got to, so I would love it if you could come back. And also, I’d love for you to talk more about your teaching career, what it was like at the time that you were teaching and getting your master’s degree. That was pretty unique back then, so I would love to talk to you about that track.
Marilyn Quigley:
Great.
Julie Gunlock:
So let’s call this part one.
Marilyn Quigley:
All right.
Julie Gunlock:
I’d love you to come back and tell us more about your life and raising kids and all sorts of stuff, and again your teaching career.
Marilyn Quigley:
I would be happy to do that.
Julie Gunlock:
Before we sign off though, boy, you have these great books out there. Is there somewhere where people can follow you? Do you have a website? Or are you on social media?
Marilyn Quigley:
I did have a website, and then I just let it go because I wasn’t sure how many people were going to come to it. But I do have the latest book that I published is on Vella, Kindle Vella. And you can read it for really pennies, dollars, the way that works. And I’m not going to explain that, but I will say this. If you want to know what school was like when I went to school in a two-room country school—yes, I’m that old—and then so I have seen … I mean, read the book because it is a plot that is fiction, but the setting is absolutely correct. And it is set in World War II, which I’ve done some research on too, so I was able to put that in. So that would be one, and the other one is, you can get it on Amazon, Journey to Elsewhere, or Barnes and Noble.
Julie Gunlock:
We will definitely add the links to these books when we post this on IWF. We’ll have the links in there. And stay tuned for an email because I think it would be great to have you come back and talk about those books, talk about your early education life. And also, I’d love to get your thoughts on how education has changed because it certainly has.
Marilyn Quigley:
I have some thoughts on that.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes, yes. Well, Marilyn, thank you so much for joining me. We’ll be back in touch soon.
Marilyn Quigley:
All right. Thank you, Julie. I appreciate it.
