On this episode of The Bespoke Parenting Podcast, host Julie Gunlock talks to Dr. Lance Izumi, senior director of the Pacific Research Institute’s Center for Education, about his new book, The Great Parent Revolt: How Parents and Grassroots Leaders Are Fighting Critical Race Theory in America’s Schools. Julie and Dr. Izumi also discuss the largely COVID-driven parent rights movement, the politicization of today’s teaching profession, the emergence of CRT and gender theory in K-12 education, and the encouraging personal stories of some of our nation’s most active parent advocates.
TRANSCRIPT
Julie Gunlock:
Hey everyone, I’m Julie Gunlock, host of The Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to the program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families, themselves, and most importantly, their kids. Today I’m speaking with Dr. Lance Izumi. He is the Senior Director of the Center for Education at the Pacific Research Institute. He is the former two-term President of the Board of Governors of the California Community Colleges, which is the largest system of higher education in the nation. Recently, Dr. Izumi co-authored the new book “The Great Parent Revolt,” is there one ever, “How Parents and Grassroots Leaders Are Fighting Critical Race Theory in America’s Schools.” The book profiles ordinary moms and dads who want critical race theory out of America’s schools. Thanks for joining me today, Doctor.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Well, Julie, it’s a great pleasure to be on your podcast with you. I’m really looking forward to our conversation, and being able to get some information out to your listeners.
Julie Gunlock:
This certainly is, I think, one of the most important issues of our day and a great concern to parents. Tell me about your new book, “The Great Revolt.” And to listeners, we will put the link to your book in when we post this podcast, but tell us about your new book.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Yeah, so the book, first of all, is about critical race theory and how average parents and educators and students are fighting critical race theory in the trenches. So this book is different from other books that have talked about critical race theory, which have often been discussing theories, academic aspects of critical race theory. This isn’t that, this is a book that talks about critical race theory from the point of view of the people who are actually going through it and having actually to deal with it on a day-to-day basis, and how are they trying to defeat it, because critical race theory is really the most divisive doctrine ever to threaten America’s schools and America’s children. And for those of your listeners who aren’t familiar with exactly what critical race theory actually is, it’s really a variation of Marxism. Because if you think about Marxism, classical Marxism anyway, you had the oppressed class and you had the oppressor class. Now, back under classical Marxism, it was based upon your economic status. So if you were rich, you were the oppressor class. If you were not rich, you were the oppressed. And so…
Julie Gunlock:
Factory owner was the oppressor, factory worker was the oppressed.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
That’s right. And most of your listeners have heard of the terms the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. So the bourgeoisie were the landowners, the capitalists, they were the oppressors, and the workers were the oppressed. But what critical race theory has done is that they have changed that, not the oppressor and oppressor class, but they’ve changed who belongs to it. So they’ve changed it into a racial membership. So that if you are white, and sometimes Asian, that you are part of the oppressor class. And if you are other non-white races, you’re part of the oppressed class.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Julie Gunlock:
You are.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Because race is with you forever, you cannot change your race, and therefore you will always be part of the oppressed class or the oppressor class, no matter, for example, if you happen to be a poor white person living in Appalachia and having to deal with great poverty versus somebody who is non-white but is very high up on the economic ladder, but because they happen to be of a certain race, they will always be viewed as a part of the oppressed class. And so, again, this is extremely divisive. And what our book does is we profile more than a dozen parents and students, educators, who are fighting this because as you can imagine, this type of doctrine has played havoc.
Julie Gunlock:
It has. And-
Dr. Lance Izumi:
[inaudible 00:05:34] kids in the class.
Julie Gunlock:
And I do want to talk about a couple of the parents that you profile. And I do love that because I feel like there’s a lot of scholarly books about critical race theory, but this book is told from the parents’ standpoint, which I think is really good, and for our listeners, I think really important to hear the story straight from the parents. But before we get into those stories, I want to talk to you about, and have you explain to me, and again, this is a little bit for our listeners too, critical theory is something that’s been around in higher education for years and years and years. I guess it started to emerge in the sixties and seventies, but K-12, this is very new. Was this started because of the death of George Floyd and the aftermath of that? Or was it there before and we just maybe didn’t notice it, but it really exploded after George Floyd, is that correct?
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Yeah, I mean, there has been an explosion after George Floyd, but I do want to emphasize that this is not a new phenomenon. In my work at the Pacific Research Institute, one of the first studies I wrote, researched and wrote two decades ago, was actually looking at the teacher training colleges in the California State University system. And in our state, the California State University produces the majority of teachers in our state. And so what I did was I looked at the teacher training curricula, actually analyzed the books that were being used to train teachers, and what you saw is that a lot of this critical race theory, these concepts, were being taught 20 years ago. And so you wonder, right now, critical race theory seems to have exploded onto the landscape. But then you have to think about that in a little bit because a lot of the teachers who are teaching it-
Julie Gunlock:
Were primed.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Haven’t just become teachers in the last couple of years, they’ve been teachers for many years.
Julie Gunlock:
Right.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
And so they’ve bought into it. And why have they bought into it? Because it was around decades ago and they were receiving that training. So yes, in a certain sense, the public has become aware of critical race theory in the classroom over the last few years, but it has been something that has been eating its way into the K-12 education system for many years. And that’s why I often talk about the education deep state.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
And that it’s not just what you’re seeing in the classroom, it goes back through the schools of education that are producing the teachers, all of the bureaucracies. So it’s this huge blob basically that we’re contending with.
Julie Gunlock:
It’s a Borg, it’s a Borg. And it’s interesting, Dr. Izumi, I’m kind of new to this, I’m one of these, I was awoken because of COVID. I had to homeschool my child, so now I’m very familiar with homeschooling, I had to pull my kids out of the public schools, and they are all now in private schools. So this has been quite a journey for me, and it has been an enlightenment of what’s going on. And I had no idea about these teaching colleges that were incubating this for so long. And then it was this George Floyd was like this flame that this, first, it ignited this movement. And I feel like before, maybe the teachers had a yellow light, they were maybe putting it in the curriculum or talking in this way because I did have kids in the public schools. And I always say that because private schools are just as bad, many private schools are just… so I find myself stopping myself always saying it’s a public school problem because some incredibly expensive private schools are just as bad.
But I do feel like after George Floyd, it really just became this huge priority for a lot of K-12 educators. But I think that’s really important what you’ve said, that this was there for a lot longer because people really do are under the impression that it just started happening. But this has been supported and encouraged from these training colleges. And now what you see is actually in what I find, because sometimes they’ll be someone in the public schools who’ll slip me some information from my local public school, they’ll secretly send me something. And the ongoing training now of teachers, it’s all about CRT, the DEI instruction and passing it. So it’s actually gotten much, much worse.
You talk about some parents in your book who are fighting back against this, and I recognize a lot of these names, Nicole Solas, Asra Nomani, who works with me at the Independent Women’s Network and Forum, Xi Van Fleet, what a story there. I’d love for you to touch on her, but I’d also like you to talk a little bit about Gab Clark because I find her story so interesting. And I know I’m going on, I’m going to get to you in a second, I’m sorry, but I do feel like, to some degree, the pushback on CRT is often portrayed as just a bunch of angry white people or nervous church moms. And it isn’t that, it’s incredibly diverse, the both politically and on race. These are not all just a bunch of conservative white women that are pushing back on this. So anyway, I want you to get into the stories that you wrote about the parents that are fighting back. We can start with Xi Van Fleet because she has a really compelling story.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Yes. Everything, what you said, Julie, is absolutely spot on. The people who are fighting against critical race theory, the parents, the students, I mean, they’re not just from a single racial group, a single economic class. I mean, these are people who are from the widest background that you can imagine. I mean, you mentioned these various people that we’ll be talking about, but one of the things I wanted to point out in our book and underscore is the fact that we profile people from every background you can imagine. And because we wanted to tell our readers, and also now tell your listeners, that the people who are fighting critical race theory really look like America.
Julie Gunlock:
Yeah.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
And so it’s not just a slice of America, it’s all of America that is angry at what is being pushed on the children in the classroom. And so you ask about Xi Van Fleet. Xi Van Fleet is one of the most compelling stories that we discuss in our book. She is an immigrant mom from communist China, and what makes her story so amazing and so important for our present day, in fighting critical race theory, is that she actually went through the Chinese Cultural Revolution under Mao Zedong. And so for your listeners who aren’t real familiar with the Cultural Revolution, this was a totalitarian beatdown basically on the Chinese people. Mao stood up young Red Guards who were going to basically destroy anything that they viewed as counter-revolutionary, anti-revolutionary, anything that was old, anything that spoke to a more ancient Chinese culture, all of that stuff was going to be destroyed if these were possessions.
But if people were coming from certain classes that the communists viewed as being counter-revolutionary, they would then be persecuted. And so you had show trials going on during that time period, and you had millions, literally millions of people were killed by the communists during the Cultural Revolution. And Xi Van Fleet saw all of this.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
She grew up as a child seeing what started off as propaganda posters in her school, which then evolved into actual persecution of the teachers in her school. We talk about, in her experience, how one of her teachers was viewed as being a counter-revolutionary simply because she had a different type of hairstyle that seemed to be a newer type of hairstyle that accentuated her beauty instead of her proletarian status. And therefore, she became the object of persecution amongst these young Red Guards who are middle school, high school age kids.
Julie Gunlock:
Yeah, you mentioned the Red Guards, and I’d love to go a little into that because it is frightening if you do know anything about Chinese history and the revolution there, and how Mao used young people to push these changes and to shame adults. And we see this all the time, the shout downs in higher education, and even the intimidation in K-12 education and the training that’s going on to push these Marxist ideas. And then you get the children. I find that the politicians and media on the left are constantly saying, “Gosh, these parents on the right, they’re so dramatic, there’s no brainwashing going on.” But that’s exactly what it is. And again, I’m so glad you profiled Xi Van Fleet because she witnessed it and she says all the time, “I’m seeing this again, I’m seeing it happen.”
Dr. Lance Izumi:
That’s exactly right. And I think, again, that’s what makes her story so compelling is that not only did she see and experience what happened during the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but she can then see the parallels between what happened in communist China and what’s happening in her new homeland of America. She said that she’d never thought she’d ever see that type of totalitarianism take root here in America, but she says the indoctrination, the type of using young people to persecute other young people and others in society because they have been indoctrinated, that that is frightening to her because she says that once you lose your free speech, and right now we talk about cancel culture and how people cannot say things because it goes against a critical race theory and prevailing narrative, but we are canceled right now in terms of our free speech. But Xi Van Fleet says that once you lose your free speech, the next thing you can lose is your life.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes. Well, Doctor, it’s also interesting to me the use of young people, particularly K-12, these are very young kids, very young kids being taught about these categories of people, the oppressors and the oppressed. And I feel like, in some ways, it normalizes these ideas. There is that as well as normalizing the idea that racism is still a massive problem in this country. And that basically if you’re of a certain color, you will never rise, you have no agency, you have no control over your life. As you say, you can’t climb that ladder. You can never rise out of your station as it is. And I think by starting it so young, I think at some point when you’re mature and maybe you’re in higher ed and you’re able to look at these things, I mean, there’s some radical people pushing this stuff in higher ed, I’m not suggesting they don’t to totally believe it, but at a very young age, the brainwashing and introducing these concepts normalize them. And I really think I’d like you to speak about that.
Is there an effort partly to get people so young just so that it sets in at a young age and then they’re really never able to rid themselves of that belief system?
Dr. Lance Izumi:
No, that’s absolutely right, Julie. And that’s why you see critical race theory and critical race theory concepts being forced upon children at very young ages. Well, and that’s also one of the reasons why we profile a student in our book, not just parents, but we profile a student named Joshua. And in his middle school, he was subjected to critical race theory exercises in a class that he thought was going to be on leadership. And it turned out it was a lot of it was on critical race theory and social justice. And so one of the things that he told us when we interviewed him was that he had to engage in an exercise called a privilege walk, where all the students were lined up shoulder to shoulder, and the teacher would call out supposed privileged traits such as, “I am white,” “I am male,” “I am Christian.” And every time that trait applied to a student, that student had to take a step forward.
And since Joshua was the only white male in his class, he had to take steps forward in front of all the rest of his class. And he said this was horrible for him. He felt like he was being singled out, he felt like he had done something wrong, that he was shameful simply because he was a white male, and he felt horrible because of it. And he said that, “Why should I feel horrible for this, for things that I can’t control? I can’t control my race.”
Julie Gunlock:
And the thing I think, Doctor, that really upsets me too is I have a very good friend. She has a child with special needs, she is not married, she’s a single mom. She struggles, she also has to take care of her sick parents. Financially, it’s very difficult for them. But in that classroom, her white son would have stepped forward several times and they wouldn’t have asked questions about his home life and about the struggles that his mother has, and their financial situation, and does he have a father present in the house? They wouldn’t have asked any of those detailed questions. It was entirely about, “Because you’re white, you’re privileged.” And that, I think, is what sickens me. It’s also teaching kids to have a lack of empathy for their fellow man, for their fellow students, and not to consider maybe there’s a complex story of maybe all humans are complex and other factors really contribute to whether we’re actually privileged.
I mean, the whole thing about privilege is so stupid anyway, but that’s really frightening that it really does teach people to judge them entirely on qualities that they have no control over, as you say. It’s very disturbing and it’s sad to think of how many kids are being put in that situation, which is why parents are angry. I know that Gab’s story, Gab Clark’s story, is interesting and relates to this a little bit because she was very angry about how her daughter was treated. Tell us a little bit about her story.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Yeah, no, and I think that it’s a great lead-in to Gab’s story. Gabs Clark is an incredible woman. She is somebody who would be the opposite of what you would think as an anti-CRT warrior. She is African American, she is extremely low income. When she was telling us her story, and at the time, where a lot of the things going on with her kids were happening in school, she was living in a motel room in Las Vegas because that’s the only thing they could afford. They had to make choices between having food or gasoline. Oftentimes, they’d have to stand in food lines, all this. So it’s very difficult life challenges she was facing, but she was sending her kids to a school. And you mentioned early on in our podcast interview about how a lot of parents figured out what was going on in the classroom because of COVID and remote learning.
And they were able to look over the shoulder of their kids and they saw, in Gab’s case, she saw that her daughter was taking an art class and the teacher was talking about Black Lives Matter and about graffiti and various types of things that ordinarily at least Gabs would view as a negative thing, but these were being portrayed in a positive way. And she got very angry about this and confronted the principal. And that was basically her awakening to what was going on in her kids’ school. But then it got even worse because her son was in a class called the Sociology of Change. He was a high school age student, and this was a required class for him to graduate. And there were critical race theory inspired lessons in this class. So for example, he had to identify himself along all kinds of different aspects of who he supposedly was; his race, his religion, his sex, his gender identity.
All these sorts of things he had to identify, and he felt very uncomfortable identifying that because her son, now, Gabs is African American, but her son is of mixed race. His father was white. Unfortunately, he is deceased, which is, again, why they were so poor. But Gab’s son, William, had white features. He blonde hair, blue eyes. And he felt that if he identified himself, let’s say, as white, that he would again receive negative feedback because of that. And he said, “I don’t want to do this. This is an invasion of my privacy basically, and that I should not have to be forced to do this lesson.” So he refused. And because he refused to do that, he received a failing grade in that class. And because this class was a requirement for graduation, he didn’t receive his diploma.
Julie Gunlock:
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
And so therefore, Gabs, who, again, is this poor African American mom of five kids living in a motel room, she decided that, “I’ve got to sue.” And so she filed a federal lawsuit against the school saying that they had violated her son’s First Amendment rights to free speech. They compelled him to speak and he didn’t have to, that they violated his 14th Amendment equal protection rights, and they violated his rights under various federal statutes such as the ’64 Civil Rights Act, which you can’t discriminate based upon race.
Julie Gunlock:
Doctor, I find Gab’s story is so compelling too because when my child was in the last year that he was in the public schools, and I’m part of a district that has seen a lot of violence in the schools, and my son was picked up and thrown across a hallway and injured by another student, and it was terrifying, it was all caught on camera, they wouldn’t let me see the film, they wouldn’t tell me any details, they kept it all hidden. The assailant was essentially let off. And then I was in no way allowed to be told that, “Okay, he got a suspension, he’s been expelled, he’s now out of that classroom.” They wouldn’t tell me any details. So I had no way of knowing if my son was going to be safe. And I tell this story because every time I asked for details, I was told, “Privacy, privacy. We have to respect the assailant’s privacy.”
I must have heard the word privacy 1,000 times that first day that I called the school to get details. And yet, they expect kids to lay this all out. They don’t give a care about kids’ privacy when it comes to pushing these CRT things and essentially giving up details so you can put yourself in a certain category. That’s the kind of thing that galls a lot of people is the utter hypocrisy. And there really are no rules. It’s an agenda, it’s pushing an agenda. And it’s terrible that these kids are put in that situation. Does Gab have a happy ending?
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Yes, Gabs has a happy ending. My understanding is that there was a settlement, and Gabs and her son came out of it happy. Let’s put it that way.
Julie Gunlock:
Good, good.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
But I think that what’s important for your listeners to understand is that you would expect, again, that the last person who would file a federal lawsuit would be somebody like Gabs Clark.
Julie Gunlock:
Yes.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
But I think that that shows the lengths to which parents are willing to protect their children from this just insidious ideological doctrine that is corrupting our classrooms right now.
Julie Gunlock:
I got to tell you, Gabs Clarke is now famous in the parent world, in the parent activist world, she’s a known activist now, out there, she’s also very involved in the gender ideology push, this critical gender ideology that’s also being pushed on kids. What are your pronouns? All this baloney that’s now in the schools as well. But I look at the list of the other women, Nicole Solas, Xi Van Fleet, Tiffany Justice, I look at myself, who, I mean, I was doing reg reform. I was happy writing for The Wall Street Journal on, “Hey, get your vaccines, get your polio vaccine.” I was in a completely different area of policy, and now I talk a lot about education. And it’s created this force of a lot of moms, but also dads, Ian Prior in Northern Virginia, and there’s a number of other dads that are involved too. And yet, so you’ve written about this whole new parent revolt, this is so strong, and yet I can’t help but feel, it’s like sometimes I feel defeated.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Well, I think that it’s often easy for parents to feel defeated because again, you’re going against the education deep state. And so they have so many weapons at their disposal.
Julie Gunlock:
Yeah.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
I mean, not just the district bureaucracy that wants to be obscure and hide things from parents like you, the teachers unions are extremely powerful politically. They seem to have unending amounts of money to spend. But I mean, one of the things that I tried to do in this book, and myself and my co-authors, Wenyuan Wu and McKenzie Richards, what we tried to do is we tried to give parents hope that aren’t going to be defeated, that it’s not as if that despite the fact the other side has a lot of weapons at their disposal, that parents actually are a powerful force if they come together.
And one of the things that we do in our book is to show that people like Nicole Solas and others who have used Public Records Act as a tool in order to enforce transparency on the schools to get that information that was denied to you, to get that out to people so they know what’s being taught to their kids, that you see we interview and have a profile, Ryan Girdusky.
Julie Gunlock:
Runs PAC.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Who has a Political Action Committee geared only to promoting parent candidates who are going to do something about these issues in their school districts.
Julie Gunlock:
Yep.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
And he’s proven to be extremely effective. He’s helped candidates all across the country, and he’s basically been able to flip so many school boards, that had previously been controlled by the special interest groups, to pro-parent majorities. I look here in my own state of California, and you can’t get more blue than California right now, unfortunately.
Julie Gunlock:
What are you doing there? No…
Dr. Lance Izumi:
I know. I always ask that myself, Julie. But even here in California we, in the November election, we saw a number of school boards flip to pro-parent majorities. In fact, down in Southern California, in a city called Temecula, the parents gained a pro-parent majority on that board. And what was the first thing they did as a majority? They banned CRT in school districts.
Julie Gunlock:
Nice.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
In their school district. And so you’re seeing that all across the country, that parents are now motivated, they’re energized. The CRT has acted as a catalyst that has brought them together and have shown that, “Hey, there’s still more of us than there are the proponents of CRT.” And that’s why the CRT proponents want to tell parents there’s no CRT in the classroom. Because if parents believe that, they won’t get organized. But as I pointed out in the book, Tiffany Justice, who you mentioned, who’s one of the co-founders of Moms for Liberty, when she started her organization, she went from basically nothing to now 85 chapters in most states in the country, near 85, I should say 200 chapters across the country and then 85,000 members across the country.
Julie Gunlock:
Yeah. Well, and it’s interesting, it’s interesting, at IW, we’ve also started a membership organization and we now have about 20 chapters all over the country. And what we wanted to do is capture some of those open school groups, like Loudoun County Can Do Better. It’s these little groups that were set up in the midst of COVID. And it was a lot of parents were willing to give these school districts a lot of grace early on. But then after a while, everyone’s like, “Open the schools, get rid of the mess. What is going on here?” And so they started to collect. And what I think what Moms for Liberty and what IW, Independent Women’s Network, and there’s other groups, there’s more regional groups, realize is, “Wow, if we can get these parents active on other issues, I mean, this world would be a lot better if citizens stood up and let their voices be heard.” Obviously schools are a major part of that.
But that is encouraging. And I think one thing I want to cover before we talk about this is, you mentioned this, that school administrators, K-12 schools, they are hiding it now because they know they’re under attack. And so they have these strategies where they can say, “Oh no, CRT isn’t taught.” And they do this thing where, because if you look at a child’s curriculum, it says reading, writing, follows the typical thing, but it’s like the books they’re reading are all Kendi for kids, it’s Bettina Love. It’s all this CRT stuff. So it might just say literature, and then it says… even the math stuff. I mean, math has even been touched by this stuff. So what tips would you give for parents? Because some are being told, “Oh, CRT isn’t taught here,” but we know it is. How can parents stay vigilant?
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Well, I think that, again, going back to this public records request strategy that Nicole Solas used, let me mention a second person that we profile, a parent who used public records request, we profiled Kelly Schenkoske, who is a mom from Monterey County out here in California on the Central Coast, beautiful, beautiful place if anyone’s ever been there. But her schools were rife with critical race theory. Of course, the schools were not owning up to it.
Julie Gunlock:
Right, denying it.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
So she actually filed record a public records request and was able to find a 571-page document about how the schools in her area were implementing ethnic studies into their classes. And that in this implementation document, the words, the phrase critical race theory was used 44 times. It wasn’t used as once or twice, 44 times it was used in how to implement this ethnic studies requirement in their schools. And so therefore, again, if you want that transparency, if you want to ensure that the schools own up to what they’re actually teaching the kids, that is one thing that parents can use. The Goldwater Institute, for example, in Arizona has put out a very good document about how to use public records requests that parents can use as a tool.
Julie Gunlock:
Great. Well, you know what else people can do? They can buy your book, that is called “The Great Parent Revolt: How Parents and Grassroots Leaders Are Fighting Critical Race Theory.” You are an absolute joy to talk to about this, Doctor. I would love it if you would come back on, I feel like we have more to talk about, particularly some of these states’ efforts to ban critical race theory. I’d love your thoughts on that. We’ll have to wait til the next time you come on, but I really hope you do come back on this, it’s been a fascinating conversation.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Well, thank you very much, Julie. I really enjoyed chatting with you. I mean, there is so much to talk about on this subject, and I think we’ve really only scratched the surface. So I think that your listeners will be really interested to hear about some of the other stories in the book, but also about some of those issues that you bring up. So I would be happy to come back on your show.
Julie Gunlock:
Well, and I will say, as we wrap up here, I will say, I so appreciate people telling people’s stories. I think as a mom, who, I have a podcast and I host a radio show three times a week, and I’m obviously part of IWF, and I can write these stories, but there’s an awful lot of parents who don’t necessarily feel like they have that megaphone. So I’m grateful to you and your team and your co-authors for highlighting some really inspiring stories. Parents, it can be depressing, but stories like this inspire us. So thank you so much, Doctor.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Thank you very much, Julie. And our motto is that we’re not ivory towered people, we’re people people.
Julie Gunlock:
That’s great, that’s great. Well, you’re always welcome here. Thanks again for coming on.
Dr. Lance Izumi:
Thank you.
Julie Gunlock:
That was a great conversation. The Bespoke Parenting Podcast is a production of the Independent Women’s Forum. Please help us out by hitting the subscribe button and leaving us a comment or review on Apple Podcasts, Acast, Google Play, YouTube, or iwf.org. Hang in there, parents, I’ll see you next time on Bespoke.