On this episode of The Bespoke Parenting Podcast, host Julie Gunlock talks the latest parenting news with regular guest Cathy Holman. They chat about empty nest syndrome among moms, getting kids ready for college, scholarship and recruiting opportunities, and the outrageous case of the Wyoming University sorority house being forced to accept a biological male as a member. Should our daughters lose safe female spaces? 

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TRANSCRIPT

Julie Gunlock:

I’m Julie Gunlock, host of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to the program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom-tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families, themselves, and most importantly, their kids. Today, I’m excited. My good friend, Cathy Holman is back. This is number three. I think she’s been on three other times. Cathy is better known as the Prairie Wife. She’s a city girl, gone country. She began prairiewifeinheels.com in 2013 where she spreads her message of living a life of grit and grace. She’s a good friend of this program. Again, number three. We’re going to start doing, I think, a monthly parenting news roundup. So great to see you, Cathy. Thanks for coming on again.

Cathy Holman:

Thank you for having me. You know I love it.

Julie Gunlock:

All right. Parenting news roundup, there’s a lot to talk about in the parenting realm, but today, I want to get a little bit away from the schools and school boards and some of that stuff. I do want to talk about one hot topic in the news, but I wanted to get your thoughts. I read in the Washington Post this article by Mary Laura Philpott. This is kind of a tearjerker article. I have to say-

Cathy Holman:

I know her. I saw her.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, you do?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. I saw her talk at a conference a couple of years ago, her books and her social media. How fun. Okay.

Julie Gunlock:

That’s so great. Okay.

Cathy Holman:

That’s so great.

Julie Gunlock:

Well, this is an interesting article and this is for… I feel like I’m in this middle stage. I’ve got a 16-year-old. I’ve got a 14-year-old and a 13-year-old, so middle and high schoolers, right?

Cathy Holman:

Mm-hmm.

Julie Gunlock:

And I am starting to feel this weird sense that, “Oh, my gosh, they’re going to be leaving,” and it’s weird. I think when you have 4, 5, 7, even 10-year-olds, you’re not really thinking that way, but I am, and I also have a good number of friends whose children have essentially left the nest and I’ve watched them sort of struggle with that. So, this article… Just to set the stage, you have a junior. Your oldest is a junior in high school, correct?

Cathy Holman:

Yes. Right. I have five kids and I have a junior. He’s a junior now, which means he’s going to be a senior next week, and then a daughter that’s a freshman, so she’s going to be a sophomore. And my big thing that everyone told me is when they start high school, it goes by like that, and that is the truth.

Julie Gunlock:

You are in middle of this. I have a freshman right now and then an eighth grader and a seventh grader. Seriously, what was wrong with me? I kind of spread it out. What was I thinking? Anyway-

Cathy Holman:

You’re going to have a hit after hit after hit. That’s like me, and starting next year, my kids are rotating out every other year, and I did not think that through. I did not. I thought, “Okay, it’s going to be chaos when they’re babies, but then it’ll be great.” So, I’m so excited to hear what this article has to say and if we agree or disagree.

Julie Gunlock:

Well, it’s interesting too. I’m kidding. What was I thinking? I mean, it was like we just-

Cathy Holman:

Sure. Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

I had had some trouble having. I lost my first. I had a very late miscarriage, and then I had two more miscarriages. Then I got pregnant, and then we were just like, “There are no breaks.” Because I wanted a big family, so I’m lucky I have three, but it really is everything for me. From potty-training, to first meals, to riding their bikes, everything was done as a chunk. It wasn’t like I taught one and then I taught the next. It was like they all learned things and did things almost at the same time. It’s been this blur and this will be the same for me. So, let’s get to the…

This article is really interesting. She starts off, she talks about, it’s celebration season. Kids are graduating. She goes on talks about that. She says, “No matter what kind of parent you’ve been, attached, detached, tiger mom, baseball dad, the dynamic between you and your child changes now forever.” She’s talking about once they graduate, it changes now forever. Oh, I’m going to cry. “It is not shameful to be swept upside down at the prospect of this upcoming separation. Even if you are 100% sure the time is right.” Every time I go into my son’s room, I’m like, “Go away.” Anyway, “I have two kids, a son who graduated from high school two years ago and a daughter who will do the same next year. On the first day my son no longer lived in our house, I opened the dryer and found a pair of his socks. Look at me. look at me. While I never drive my whole…”

Cathy Holman:

You’re crying.

Julie Gunlock:

“While I never drive my whole identity from parenthood,” which I think is similar for us, obviously parenthood’s a big part of it and we’ve got all these other things that we do, “and certainly hadn’t romanticized every minute of raising children. All I could think of right then was…” Okay, I got to take a break because I’m literally [inaudible] and embarrassing right now.

She talks about this and she goes on, and I’m not going to read it because it’s too sad, but she did say, “Into that teenage size hole in your heart, you must put something exciting for you and you should proactively plan it now.” She goes on and she talks… I mean, she found pottery. She got really into pottery class, and then she said she [inaudible] there twice a week and she now is developing… This is so embarrassing. Developing this new form of art that she’s interested in. And that really resonates with me because… Okay. The point of her article, at the end, I think she says something like, “You have to do it now. Plan now. Don’t plan on graduation day. Don’t wait three months after he’s gone,” and then say, “Oh, gosh, what [inaudible] with time?” So, I feel like I need to plan now.

She also talked about how she didn’t find it satisfying just to lose herself in work. You and I, we both work and that also fills some of our time, but she said that it wasn’t enough. She was obviously searching for something that stimulated her from an artistic standpoint, a creative standpoint, so I thought that was really interesting. How are you feeling as I’m reading this?

Cathy Holman:

I have two different thoughts that have come into mind. One is based on my own personal experience just a month or so ago, but the first thought I want to share is parenting is a continual process of letting go. You start out, I think, especially as a mother, but I think dads are definitely included in this. That baby is inside of you, and then all of a sudden, it’s out and you still have to protect it in the same way. Right? We all deal with that in different ways. Some people don’t care if someone touches their baby. Other people don’t leave the house, right? And then, they learn to walk and you have to just let them and you have to let them fall. And then, they go to kindergarten for the first time or preschool or daycare, whatever that looks like. Right?

So, to me, parenting is this constant act of, “I’m here and I want to, but for your own good, I have to let you go.” And we know that inevitable, 18 or whatever you look like, they’re going to officially be living their best life, and if you do not acknowledge that’s coming, you’re going to be a wreck and you cannot ignore it. Think about that first sleepover. It’s way harder on you than it is on them. That first overnight trip, we have all these little… In high school, they’re gone for a weekend for a sports event, and that’s a little way of, “Okay, we could do this.” With my kids, I’m like, “Show me proof of life. You don’t have to call me, but text me and show me proof of life. I need a picture of you.” Our oldest son went and wrestled in Madrid and Barcelona, Spain for two weeks without us.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, that’s hard.

Cathy Holman:

So, again, that was just a little taste. I think besides giving ourselves time to get used to finding habits, we need to also do little things like that to make it easier for all of us because if the first time your kid’s been away from you for two days is their freshman year of college, it’s not going to be successful. You’re going to have the kid that’s depressed. You’re going to have the kid that doesn’t understand or have strengthened their own confidence and abilities. Right?

Julie Gunlock:

Well, also, this is a good way to segue into one thing I think parents might not do, is in an effort to hang on to those last couple of years, and I’m guilty of the… I mean, I shouldn’t say last couple of years, but I am… If you have a 14-year-old, and he leaves for college at 18, it is unfair.

Cathy Holman:

There’s no guarantee. Yeah. They’ll have a girlfriend’s house that they’re going to for Thanksgiving. You know what you [inaudible], and your kid’s going to be the same.

Julie Gunlock:

But it’s interesting. I think one thing parents can do that will help them with this transition is preparing their kids to go out in the world. There’s a great parenting book called “How to Raise an Adult” by Julie Lythcott-Haims. I actually reviewed this book I think for National Review. Are you familiar? It’s a great book. I’ve mentioned it before.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. I’m not, but that concept, we do. My daughter… Just today, I was giggling because I knew we were going to be talking about some of this. She is in second grade, so about to be a third-grader. She’s eight years old and it was time for breakfast, and she goes, “I want to make eggs,” and I’m like, “No problem.” So, she made herself toast. She went to the stove. She made eggs. We didn’t have shredded cheese, so she just tore up all these things that some adults can’t even do.

Julie Gunlock:

No. Exactly. This book, this “How to Raise an Adult,” Julie Lythcott-Haims was a dean of I think Stanford. I might be getting that wrong. And for 18 years. I think it was 18 years that she… This book had such an impact on me that I remember so much about it, but she was a dean of admissions at Stanford, again, I think, and she noticed over the 18 years that kids were incapable of making eye contact. They would hide behind their parents. Their parents would do most of the talking. We know all this and we know that COVID made it worse, but we know that if you look at, sort of children have become less capable. She said, “Then their parents leave. They take the U-haul home, and these kids don’t know how to clean themselves, don’t know how to set up a workspace, don’t know how to cook, don’t know how to do their laundry, and they also don’t know how to really communicate with other people.” Then she’s like, “Oh, shocking.” Then we have all these kids on that are depressed-

Cathy Holman:

Mental health issues, right?

Julie Gunlock:

And then, they get medicated, but they’re not dealing with the core issues of, “Let me explain to you how to survive.” So, it sounds like you’re already doing this and I’m already doing this, but I think this also could be a coping mechanism for parents. Before, spend those last-

Cathy Holman:

I want it to be easy for them while they’re with me. It’s going to be hard enough for the rest of their lives, so I want it to be… I get that. Plus, let’s be real, it is way flipping easier for me to handle all the things than to let them do it.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, my God.

Cathy Holman:

Let’s be real.

Julie Gunlock:

As you were describing-

Cathy Holman:

Let’s be real.

Julie Gunlock:

As you were describing the eggs, all I can think of is the mess, the mess, the mess.

Cathy Holman:

You know what it takes to get there. Right? But guess what? She knows how to clean up the mess. Today, we had, because we do not have an amazing fancy house, the lesson of, “Honey, you need to let the pan cool before you put it on our not granite countertop, to then put it on your plate.” I caught it in time because it’s supervised freedom. Right?

Julie Gunlock:

Right. Right.

Cathy Holman:

So, you just buy it and then like, “Hey, honey.” Right? But now she knows and now that’s not going to be a problem moving forward. Here’s my thought too, rather than looking at it, I’m forcing them to grow up too soon. I can do it. I should do it. I’m the parent. I’m asking too much of them. Look at it this way. Not only are you preparing them for success, but also I have the comfort of knowing, when my kid goes out, he’s not going to starve to death. When a girl does come to his dorm room, she’s not going to barf and leave and he won’t be a bachelor forever. Right? My daughter does not need a man around or need to stick with a boyfriend to help her fix the toilet or all these little… Right?

Julie Gunlock:

Yes.

Cathy Holman:

I’m giving them the tools to be successful, and it’s not that I’m not taking care of them. I say that to them all the time, as I’m eating bonbons while they clean the house. I’m just kidding. But sometimes I do sit and work while they clean the house, but I’m like, “I know you think I’m lazy, but trust me, when I say it would be way easier for me to clean the whole house in an hour and a half, than scream at you or prompt you over and over for four hours to do it. But this-

Julie Gunlock:

I can’t.

Cathy Holman:

… is important.”

Julie Gunlock:

I cannot. I cannot believe the parents who do not give chores. We pay a small allowance to our kids, I say, once a week. Usually, I forget and then I owe them more at the end of the month.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. You’re like, “Here’s your hundred dollars.” Yeah. Uh-huh.

Julie Gunlock:

No, it’s much less than that. Of course, I know you’re joking. But it amazes me, parents who don’t give chores. Chores are a way of explaining to kids how to actually do things.

Cathy Holman:

And show them they’re capable and you can do it. Honestly, God bless you, my kids don’t get an allowance. They’re out feeding horses at 5:30 in the morning because they want to ride the horses in the summer. And then, you’re cleaning up the house and you’re doing your laundry because you have clothes to wear. Now, above and beyond things, building fence or helping us build our hay barn, our steel hay… Right. Above and beyond things, we’ll give them a certain amount of money. Just… Right?

Julie Gunlock:

I got to ask you. I got to tell this story. On Twitter, I love your… Say your Twitter. What’s your Twitter handle?

Cathy Holman:

It’s @PrairieHeels because someone else was Prairie Wife. So, I’m pretty sure my Twitter handle is @PrairieHeels. That’s what it is on Instagram too.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Everyone should follow you because you post these videos and pictures of what your kids do, which is so interesting because look, it’s Wyoming, and they’re out on horses.

Cathy Holman:

It’s totally different. Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

It is. You posted something the other day and I was like, “What is that little round things?” First, say what was it that thing. It was a roundup of the cattle. Right?

Cathy Holman:

It’s called spring branding. The whole month of May, that’s what we do. We’re going to go tomorrow and do spring branding at our neighbors. Usually, it’s a community thing because for example, this year we don’t have cows, but we have multiple ranches located around us and sometimes they have up to 1200 head that need branded, so you just help. It’s fun. It’s just what you do. It’s good for the kids.

Branding is how you take care of the new calves that were born in February. You give them vaccinations. You tag them. You castrate them if they’re bulls. If anyone’s sick, you give them medication if they’re swollen. Okay. And then, you brand them, so that you know they’re your cattle in case they get out. So, part of the branding is that’s also how you count how many calves you have and you keep track of… I call them the boys and the girls because I’m a city girl, but technically it’s the steers and the heifers.

Everyone laughs because I’m like, “Is it a boy or a girl?” Because that determines what you do. For the girls, you take a little triangle out of the top of their ear and you put it in a bucket, and for the boys, you save one of their little sacks from their male anatomy, and you put it in another bucket. So, then at the end, you count it out, and that way in this year how many heifers were born and how many steers were born. So, you can keep track of your stock. What you saw was my daughter-

Julie Gunlock:

There are these little triangles.

Cathy Holman:

… and my sons. The little triangles are the chunks of the ears that we cut out. And then, the little balls you saw were the balls and they were counting them.

Julie Gunlock:

So, I innocently ask, I’m like, “What are those things they’re sorting,” and your response… I think, I don’t remember how you responded, but I was like, “Gulp.” I was like, “Oh, okay.”

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. Yeah, we’re not squeamish around here, that’s for sure.

Julie Gunlock:

So, what do you do with the cows who don’t identify as male or female? Okay.

Cathy Holman:

No, never a problem. That’s weird.

Julie Gunlock:

You know I had to make a joke. I had to make a joke.

Cathy Holman:

No, it’s totally fine. One of the things that we talked about, going back to that parenting article is I actually just wrote an article. She talks about you have to wait. You can’t wait till senior year in graduation to accept that this change is happening, and I agree with that wholeheartedly. My son is a junior, so it was time to schedule senior pictures because in case you’re watching this and you don’t know, if you choose to do senior pictures, schedule them now. You cannot wait till April. Okay? Now because you’re going to get 500 emails from the school all fall long saying they need them for the banners to go. They need them for the slideshow. You need to have them before school. You’re welcome, for those of you that are not aware of this.

You don’t have to hire a photographer. You can do it on your own. It’s fine. We have a photographer we’ve worked with that does our family pictures. She’s going to do, so I scheduled senior pictures and that’s when it hit for me. We set up the date and the time. She sent me the information. Here’s the outfits. Here’s that. And I hit like, “Okay, I put it in my calendar.” And I started crying, and because I’m me and I like to pour salt on the wounds, and I believe in just wallowing for 24 hours straight and then moving on with your lives, I went into our son’s room, which has been his room since he was two years old and we moved here, and I pulled down the photo albums of when he was a sweet little baby and a three-year-old, and his whole world was me. Right?

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. Yes.

Cathy Holman:

And I just looked through them and I wept. I ugly cried. I’m sure he will see the tear marks on because he’s older, so it wasn’t digital. Tear marks on all the photo albums and I just cried, but I felt so much better afterwards because you just got to cry. Cry. This is a big freaking deal. This is your baby and you can’t fix it. You can’t fix it. You can’t fix whatever happens. They’ve got to go through whatever happens next.

Julie Gunlock:

I think the other thing, and especially for me which is I deal with a little bit, is I have all boys, and I think boys leave in a slightly different way, whereas girls… I mean, I think about a lot of girls or a lot of women. It’s not true all the time, but sometimes I think they want to be with their moms. Right? So, Christmases and Thanksgiving, they might get a little… I worry about that tremendously and I worry that look, I hope they get married and have families and have a wonderful life, but suddenly, you’re going to be an in-law. When it’s a boy, you’re going to be the in-law.

Cathy Holman:

No one ever talks about my… It’s always the mother-in-law, that’s the-

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. Yes.

Cathy Holman:

And that’s going to be us. That’s going to be us. So, I have thoughts on this because I-

Julie Gunlock:

Honestly, I’m watching way too much Meghan Markle news too. I’m terrified that…

Cathy Holman:

Look, you can’t pick and in the end, whether you’re a faith-based person or not, that is their new family, and how you react is going to determine how much you get to interact with that family. Now, that doesn’t mean that you need to bend over backwards and jump when they say jump and take care of grandkids when you don’t want to. I think the boundaries on both sides are super healthy and super important. And then, I think you have to give grace to yourself, and for you, daughter-in-law, for me, I’m going to have a mixture of everything because I know my relationship now with my mother-in-law is phenomenal. It is. I consider her a friend. We did not start that way, and a lot of it was my own baggage.

Julie Gunlock:

Cathy, that’s really good sensible advice. Here’s mine. I think you should encourage your sons to marry orphans because then-

Cathy Holman:

I love it.

Julie Gunlock:

… you don’t need to compete, or-

Cathy Holman:

And you don’t know what her mom should be like.

Julie Gunlock:

Or marry someone that’s from a war-torn country because nobody wants to go and visit that. Right? So, this is my advice.

Cathy Holman:

I have another perspective on this. My husband’s fifth generation, Wyoming. He is here. All of his siblings are still here in the state. I at 17 years old left home, which was Milwaukee, moved to Wyoming and haven’t looked back since. Okay? One of the best things that my parents ever did for me when I left, and I have done this for all of my children, is my mom said, “We don’t care when we see you as long as we see you.” They took a hundred percent of the pressure off at making it there for the holidays, making it there for the big benchmark moments. And I can tell you what, especially once we started having kids, to be able to not worry about Thanksgiving and Christmas, but to come for a week and a half in the summer when there’s actually stuff to do with kids was huge.

Of course, they’re always welcome here. We always invite them to come and visit us, but taking that pressure off of insisting, you’re here for Christmas, you’re here for whatever, especially because plane tickets at that time and travel at those big days are so expensive. It just wasn’t-

Julie Gunlock:

Smart.

Cathy Holman:

… feasible, right?

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Cathy Holman:

It just wasn’t feasible. So, if there’s something that I could tell people whose kids are going… Our oldest son, I don’t think he’s going to stick around in Wyoming. He’s looking at Florida. He wants to go somewhere warm. This last winter broke him, which my husband’s like, “No.” And I’m like, “Go. Go. I will visit you wherever you are.”

Julie Gunlock:

Well, it’s funny.

Cathy Holman:

“I will visit you wherever you are.”

Julie Gunlock:

It’s interesting, especially if he lives in Florida. Who doesn’t want to go to Florida?

Cathy Holman:

And then, would be good.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. Yes. That actually ties into my other theory. I have all these theories and all these ideas on how I’m going to keep them close.

Cathy Holman:

And we’re going to laugh in 10 years when we’re still doing this, and none of this worked. None of this works.

Julie Gunlock:

Exactly. But I’ve said to my husband, I’m like… I mean, we live in a pretty area. Alexandria, Virginia is historic, although the city leadership is so woke around here. I’ll be surprised if there’s any-

Cathy Holman:

We got lots of room here for you, I’m just saying.

Julie Gunlock:

You know I want to go, but I’ve said to Darren, we’ve got to… Either our retirement house and we have no… It’s like a fantasy. We will never be able to buy an ocean front house or a lakefront house.

Cathy Holman:

Hey, never say never. You never know.

Julie Gunlock:

You never know. But I’ve said like, “We need to because I want it to seem like a vacation, that they can come, and I’ll have this beautiful guest room and all this stuff.”

Cathy Holman:

I have to be honest, that is our plan. That is a hundred percent my plan. We are saving for a vacation home by the beach, so that my children will visit me, and I tell that to the kids and I tell my husband, “We need to make sure it’s three bedroom because even though we don’t need that, that works perfect for their kids and all that.” Hey, look, I’ve got that plan in place as well around here.

Julie Gunlock:

Okay. Now, that’s something we have to make happen.

Cathy Holman:

But in the end, we have to let them go. You knew that from the beginning. I’m not saying it’s easy. I think her advice about pre-planning for that separation is phenomenal, not only for you but for the kids. Right?

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Cathy Holman:

I can tell you, I did not expect the stress of college applications of them picking because in our family, we do not pay for our kids’ college. We have said that from the very beginning. We are not paying for our kids’ college, which on one hand is a little bit stressful for them. Our son has to have a job all summer. He doesn’t get to go play and do all the things with his buddies. Good grades matter more because he knows that… This is all of them.

Julie Gunlock:

It’s his money.

Cathy Holman:

I said he because he’s the oldest, but it gives him complete and utter freedom to pick whatever he wants. I’m not going to be mad if right now, he wants to be a nurse, but if he goes to nursing school and two years in he’s like, “Oh, not the right fit,” I don’t care. Okay, fine. You paid for it. Not my… Whereas I see other kids struggling with, “I have to pick something because my parents are paying for this, so the parents get input and I have to listen to them and I have to meet their expectations.” I feel like actually, while it has put financial pressure on him, not in an aggressive way, but in a way that this is just the reality of growing up, it’s also given him a lot of freedom that his friends don’t have.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Well, the parenting role that you have is just making sure he doesn’t do something utterly stupid.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. He wants to go to Notre-Dame, great. Where’s your $60,000 a year for tuition coming from? If you don’t get a scholarship, check it off.

Julie Gunlock:

But also you need to examine the job you’re eventually going to get. Now, oh my gosh, there’s a lot of money in nursing. I had no idea. Actually, years ago, when I was on Capitol Hill, I was staffing a hearing on the nursing shortage in America, and I think there still is a nursing shortage.

Cathy Holman:

Oh, absolutely.

Julie Gunlock:

And these travel nurses, they had been-

Cathy Holman:

$10,000 a week.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh my God, yeah. They had been seconded to the office to help with this hearing. They had careers as nurses, but they had kind of gotten into the policy world, and they told me one day… It was funny because it really was that moment, and then there was another moment. The nurses were so nice to me when I was at the hospital having babies, and I want to live with the nurses. They’re so nice. I didn’t want to leave. And I was like, “I would’ve been good at this job.” So, it was funny because I had this whole… But I could not believe the money. I couldn’t. Again, $10,000 a week for a traveling nurse. Now, it’s disruptive, especially if you have family.

Cathy Holman:

But here’s the deal. That’s his thing. You just hit the nail on the head. He doesn’t have family. So, his plan… Granted, not all children have this foresight and he can change his mind at any moment, but we have so many conversations about this that he has thought and he knows he probably doesn’t want to live in Wyoming. So, his plan is to get an education wherever college gives him the most money. He has some places he doesn’t want to live, lots of places he’s open to. And then, he’s just going to go all over the world and make money, and then pick in the end when he is ready to settle down where he wants to be, and that might be back in Wyoming, after he’s been in every-

Julie Gunlock:

That’s great. that’s great.

Cathy Holman:

And our daughter wants to be an ag teacher, agriculture teacher. She knows that. She used to want to be a vet, but she kind of changed her mind and felt like after talking to people that, that wasn’t really a good financial option because especially for country vets, it’s just ugh, to get people to pay and all that. But anyway, now, she knows that’s what she wants to do, so she knows probably going to college in New York City not a good fit because they probably don’t have a great ag program, Texas, Oklahoma, of course the University of Wyoming. Right? So, knowing that now, she can start making all these things and all these [inaudible].

Julie Gunlock:

I got back. I got on a tangent about the nursing profession, but what I meant to say is if you’re going to get a degree in social work, you’re not likely to be making big bucks ever. Okay? I mean, my sister’s a social worker, right? She does a lot of great things. She loves her job. She’s-

Cathy Holman:

Not for the money.

Julie Gunlock:

And she has a great life. She’s not married, so basically, she only has to take care of herself and she does fine. But don’t go to Notre-Dame. I mean, there’s this idea, and I think to sort of detach kids or make them understand that, “I know you want this college experience and you want to go to this cool college, but ultimately, if you want to be a social worker, maybe do two years at community college and then go somewhere else.”

My kids, our position on colleges and paying for colleges because of COVID, and we’re now providing our kids with a private school education, we are not really sure we can help much. But the rule is don’t get yourself in a ton of college debt. That is the only thing that we are… We’re going to be like you. “Hey, choose where you want to go,” but we are going to be very firm on, if they want to be an engineer and you want to go to Notre-Dame, you’ll probably make that money. It’s probably worth it, right?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

What’s the… I think it’s DePauw. There’s a school that’s known for its engineering department. Then you’re going to be in a lot of debt, but you’re going to make a ton of money, so it’s probably fine.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. And the connections you can make by picking that one. The thing about it too is scholarship is so much easier now. There’s literally a website that my son goes to. He visits it. Again, not all kids are this driven, but as parents, you can make them sit down and do it because hi, you’re the parent.

Julie Gunlock:

Especially if you’re paying.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. The more that you go on it and fill stuff out, the more scholarship opportunities open up to you, right? So, it’s just this website that I feel like it’s millions of different scholarships, and he just rolls through and spends 15 minutes every couple of days on it doing all different things.

Julie Gunlock:

What is that website?

Cathy Holman:

I will get it for you from him. I will find out because he did this on… Because I told him, I’m like, “Talk to your guidance counselor. You’re a junior.” By the way, parents, if you don’t know this, junior year is when you start looking into scholarships. If your kid wants an athletic thing, start thinking about recruiting or making a Twitter account for them because that’s where all the recruiters are now is on Twitter. Put up video footage of them.

Julie Gunlock:

Really?

Cathy Holman:

Junior year is when you need a… Probably even better, sophomore year, but junior year for sure is when you need to start having these college conversations because that’s when they take their ACTs. And then, once that’s done, senior year is really just about those applications. You need to already have everything narrowed down already. At our school, they do a scholarship award ceremony where they say the scholarships that each kid got and they have it on a PowerPoint, and my son took a picture of all those scholarships listed on there, so then he can go. So, if they know from the beginning that they’re responsible for it and if you give them the tools and have the conversations, they’ll be fine. I paid my own way through college.

Julie Gunlock:

Have you written a blog on this?

Cathy Holman:

I haven’t because I feel like I’ve got to get him in college before I can say, “This is how you do it.”

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, you should.

Cathy Holman:

Does that make sense?

Julie Gunlock:

Yes, but this is actually… As I’m sitting here, I’m like, “Okay, I will be asking Cathy.”

Cathy Holman:

I know. I didn’t know. Yeah. The recruiting for sports, he decided. He had a couple of people organically reach out to him about wrestling, which is amazing. I’m not talking D-I or anything, but who cares if he get a scholarship and an education? I don’t care. So, we started asking more questions about it, and really sophomore year is when you want to start putting videos on social media of your kid, a parent-run account because if you go on Twitter, that’s where all these colleges are. That’s where they’re looking for kids, seeing what kids are doing. There’s even recruiting sites that you can pay depending on what level you want to do, starting at $950, and they put the video up. They connect you with all the colleges. They give you the emails of all the coaches so you can reach out to them. And then, depending on what level of support you need, you can pay more and more. I didn’t know about any of this.

Julie Gunlock:

I look forward to your blog.

Cathy Holman:

I will do one. I will.

Julie Gunlock:

And I also look forward to your consultancy that you should set up and help people.

Cathy Holman:

I know, right? Forget about social media and brand consulting. I need-

Julie Gunlock:

Hire you.

Cathy Holman:

But again, part of me is concerned, if I do… Maybe if I do a disclaimer where I’m like, “I’m muddling my way through it and I’m not sure the end result…” I feel bad. People are like, “Do a parenting book,” but I don’t have them finished yet, so I don’t know if I have enough street cred.

Julie Gunlock:

I think with five. I think with five you do. It’s funny that you say… How old is your youngest? Seven, did you say?

Cathy Holman:

She’s eight. Yeah, she just turned eight. Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

It’s funny because I have a friend, Carrie Lukas. She’s actually the president of IWF, and I’ve known Carrie for 20 some years. She’s similar to you, and she has a high schooler, a senior right now, and she has… Her youngest, I think, is seven or eight.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, grade school.

Julie Gunlock:

And it is so nice because you still have the… I think of the way your family is. Your kids are sort of spread out, and if I were to tell someone, considering how… I mean, you can’t design these things perfectly and stuff. You obviously can’t do everything, but boy, it’s nice to have five spread out that way. Because when you were reading this article, this woman saying she finds her son’s sock in the dryer and goes on a four-day crying binge, it’s nice to have a cuddly seven or eight-year-old there who’s still learning.

Cathy Holman:

God willing, we’ll have grandkids by the time she’s out.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. There you go.

Cathy Holman:

I know. I never have to worry about it. No pressure. No pressure.

Julie Gunlock:

There you go. All right. I want to switch topics here. This is a little bit more serious. I’m going to read from a New York Post article. This is happening in Wyoming, so I really wanted to get your thoughts on this. This is again from a New York Post article written by Yaron Steinbach. It says, “A group of University of Wyoming sorority sisters are suing their sorority for accepting a transgender woman. They’re being forced to accept a transgender woman, which is a biological male into their group. They’ve broken cover to describe how they live in constant fear in the home after the hulking student…” And this kid is really large.

Cathy Holman:

And not surgically altered in any way.

Julie Gunlock:

No, nom no. Intact. He’s a fully intact male.

Cathy Holman:

I think that’s important detail. I think that’s important detail.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. I’m going to read about that. It’s kind of horrific. “The seven women from Kappa Kappa Gamma…” Kappa Kappa Gamma? That’s a really well-known sorority, by the way. “House have filed a lawsuit against the national sorority organization, it’s national council presidents, and Artemis Langford,” he’s this 21-year-old, six foot two, two hundred and sixty pounds biological male, intact male who identifies as a woman who joined their chapter in September 22. “Langford, referred to under the male pseudonym, Terry Smith, in the suit had been living outside the sorority house and was expected to move in the coming year. However, the student, who was referred to as he and him in the suit still often stays for meals and attends events with the women.”

Anyway, these women go on to talk about how they are really afraid. They live in constant fear that they’ll run into him. One girl, in another disturbing instance, they talk about how some of these… For instance, one sorority member walked down the hall to take a shower wearing only a towel. She felt an unsettling presence, turned and saw Mr. Smith watching her silently. In another disturbing incident, the lawsuit alleges Langford has even become physically aroused. This is a quote, “Mr. Smith, while watching members enter the sorority house, had an erection visible through his leggings. Other times he had a pillow on his lap.” Anyway, essentially, these girls do not have a safe space anymore, and they are-

Cathy Holman:

Their home is no longer safe, their home.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. So, tell us about the coverage there and Wyoming and what are your thoughts on this?

Cathy Holman:

It’s been a couple of months, I think, since this started, and the big part of it that upset me… I remember, being a college girl, I had friends that were in sororities. The dorm floor that I was on, half was for the girls and half was for the boys, and I remember how disconcerting it was sometimes if you would go from the bathroom with your towel wrapped around you and someone’s boyfriend would be walking down the hallway, and you’re like… It just made you uncomfortable, and that was not continuous. It was just an incident here and there. So, for these girls, I mean, let’s face it, they can’t even walk around not wearing a bra or even in their jammies if they think… Because usually in sororities, the upstairs area where the bedrooms and everything is members only, girls only. So, you always knew if you were in your room or if you were going to the bathroom or the shower, that you knew that you didn’t have to worry about anyone’s boyfriend being up there. Right?

But boys would be downstairs and you knew that and you would be prepared emotionally with whatever you were wearing for that. So, for this to be taken away from them is not okay. It’s their own home. That’s not what they signed up for. They signed up in a sorority to be part of a sisterhood, to feel safe, to feel supported, to have strong women around you that are there going through the same things that you’re going through in college, in classes, with boyfriends, all the things. And a lot of these sorority sisters, I mean, they’re in weddings together. They sit. Right? It’s a big thing. And for him to take away decades and decades of tradition for what I feel in this situation is his own sexual satisfaction because I do think, based on what I have seen, it makes me sad. It makes me sad that these girls, they actually were anonymous up until, I believe, it was a couple of weeks ago because they were so concerned about the repercussions.

Of course, at UDub, people would know who they are, but the world that wide wouldn’t have their names. With how prevalent and terrible and vulgar cancel culture and doxxing and all the things that happen on the internet are, they were anonymous to protect themselves, to protect their families, to protect anything further on because once you Google something, you get it. But the judge insisted that if they wanted to move forward with the case, they had to be public with their names, and I did not like that.

These are girls. These are girls. They are not 40-year-old, 41-year-old women like we are who have been through the things who know this too shall pass, and it’s worth standing your ground. These are young girls, and I hate it and it made me so mad that the judge insisted that they be public with their names, the girls that are in the case. And I am so proud of them that they decided to do that and move forward because I think that they’re looking at the big picture of what this means on a nationwide level, and that makes me very proud for them, and nervous and scared for them because they are just young women.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. It really does make me sick that we are seeing this level. We’re seeing transgender-

Cathy Holman:

Is there nowhere safe?

Julie Gunlock:

No. We’re seeing male bodied, fully intact biological males, who identify as-

Cathy Holman:

And I think that’s such an important point, such an important point.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. Showing up in women’s jails, women’s shelters, in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms. They are competing against athletes. Of course, a as you know, the Riley Gaines story. Riley Gaines standing up, she says she was held hostage at the University of San Francisco and battered and beaten. I mean, it was awful what happened to her, but I do think that the more people who stand up… It’s a cliche, but there are safety in numbers, and what these girls have done is tremendously, tremendously brave.

Cathy Holman:

You know me. I try very hard not to be political in my space. I just don’t feel like I’m educated well enough to really speak out on a lot of topics, but this is one thing. This is a hill I’m willing to die on, as a mom of two girls, as a mom of sons and all the things that we have taught them. Look, my daughter wrestles boys. She wrestles boys, okay? Our state of Wyoming just got women’s wrestling sanctioned for high school last year, and I was so excited because I have seen that my daughter as a freshman, if she’s wrestling a boy that has not… Because it’s done by weight. Right?

Julie Gunlock:

Right.

Cathy Holman:

So, you know they weigh the same. You’re not stuck with someone that’s 6’3” and her being 5’3”, right? So, it is matched weight wise. I have seen if the boy has not hit puberty, you can tell she can win every time. If that boy has hit puberty, she can put up a really good fight. She can score points. She can make it into the third period sometimes even, but she cannot win.

Julie Gunlock:

That’s interesting. That’s really, really interesting.

Cathy Holman:

So, we were so excited now that women’s wrestling is growing all over the nation because it gives these girls fair competition. Fair competition, and the injuries… Those boys, a lot of times, they’re throwing the bajeebus out of her to try and prove a point. I get that, and that’s fine and whatever, and she knows what she’s signing up for wrestling boys. You’ll have ones that aren’t respectful and really are not fair, and then you have other ones that just, they’re… Right? It’s this whole, I’ve seen so much of this with her and what she does, and my eight-year-old daughter wrestles boys, and-

Julie Gunlock:

Well, it’s interesting.

Cathy Holman:

… she can win. My eight-year-old daughter can win. She can win.

Julie Gunlock:

It is interesting because I don’t really mind coed soccer teams for preschoolers and really young.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, because they’re at the same train level, but once you’re in high school, they can’t. They can’t.

Julie Gunlock:

It’s-

Cathy Holman:

Puberty.

Julie Gunlock:

It’s the hormones kicking in and giving men larger hearts and more lung capacity and a wider wing span. Their bones-

Cathy Holman:

It’s just different. It’s just different. We have female wrestlers that have been wrestling boys their whole life here in Wyoming, and now that it’s sanctioned and they’re having the opportunity to wrestle more girls, they’re struggling because girls are so much more flexible. These girls that are so used to wrestling boys have to completely change their strategy and their moves that they use because of that difference. And there again, that point, there are physical differences.

My eight-year-old daughter, if she’s wrestling a boy in the same level of experience at her, nine times out of 10, she can win. If she loses, it’s just because the kid’s been wrestling longer or does better than her because she’s eight. They’re at the exact level. But high school, like I said, my daughter is a freshman. You see those boys that haven’t hit puberty and she’s got them like that. But the other ones-

Julie Gunlock:

Well, I have to say that-

Cathy Holman:

Sorry, tangent there.

Julie Gunlock:

No, no. It actually is so relevant, and it is interesting because you have girls in this sorority who are at a physical disadvantage being in a room with a biological male.

Cathy Holman:

You can’t. Even if they weigh the same, they couldn’t.

Julie Gunlock:

Again, I don’t know what is happening at the University of Wyoming that the university itself has not stepped in. I am so disgusted. Let’s talk about it. I brought up Meghan Markle a few minutes ago. Meghan Markle gets some stupid award, Ms. Magazine Foundation, and Gloria Steinem is there who’s been reduced to a star effer, if you will. That is a line from a fantastic Daily Mail article I read today. Meghan Markle, essentially Ms. Magazine, supposed to be feminist, right? Yeah. Why aren’t they giving an award for bravery to these girls? Why aren’t they standing up for women’s spaces? Where are the feminists?

Cathy Holman:

Why are half the women’s awards going to men?

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Where are the feminists? But also, where are the sexual assault survivor activists? Can you imagine? We literally have universities where you have to set up safe spaces with coloring books and pencils and stuffed animals for people.

Cathy Holman:

Hot cocoa and pizza.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Who have to hear a speech by Riley Gaines, for instance. But you expect people who potentially have survived or possibly-

Cathy Holman:

They’re never going to be able to do that.

Julie Gunlock:

… people who has survived sexual assault and have to welcome males into their women’s space? I mean, it is so sickening. Also, I’m sorry, where are the outraged fathers? I mean, that’s another thing that bothers me is where are the men?

Cathy Holman:

Everyone’s so scared now, but in the end… Like I said, I usually stay this far away from anything political. It’s just not my thing. It’s not what I do, but this one I do not think I would be a good mother if I did not stand up for creating this safe place. Look, I don’t know a single woman that hasn’t been sexually assaulted. I don’t know a single woman that has not had someone grab them or touch them when they did not want to be touched. I don’t know a single woman. And just the thought, especially in college, when you’re so vulnerable emotionally, you’re going through so many new things to not have a safe place, especially when you paid for that sorority to be a safe place. I mean, that’s how pitch these sororities, unless it’s changed, I mean, haven’t been at the University of Wyoming in a couple of decades, but that’s how they pitch it is empowerment and women that are around you and they know what you’re going through, and they just shattered all of it.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah, they did. It really does say a lot about the university and the fact that-

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, I don’t know if the sorority is a separate entity than the university. That’s where I don’t feel comfortable. I don’t know. I don’t know that.

Julie Gunlock:

But I do know that universities set rules and can, at the very least, issue a statement in support of these girls. Or you know what the university could do? They could kick this sorority out of their campus. They do this. If you’re a fraternity-

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, for something inappropriate.

Julie Gunlock:

… and you have a drunken party and someone gets hurt, they have shut down fraternities. They can do the same thing for sororities. And the fact that the national-

Cathy Holman:

Well, and then you think too like, “All right, let’s flip it. Let’s have a girl that wants to be at Sigma Chi.” How would that work? The guys would probably be like, “Yeah.” But what would your immediate thought be? The safety of her, right?

Julie Gunlock:

Right.

Cathy Holman:

The safety of her. She would not be safe in that space. Why? Well, because there would be men around her and men near her in the shower and men near her in her room. Well, wait a minute. Isn’t that what we’re just doing to the sorority?

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. Yes. So it is truly a disappointment, the lack of support for these young girls and the fact that-

Cathy Holman:

And I hate that the judge made them say their name. I did not like that. I’m sure that there’s a lawyer listening that’s like, “Well, no, it’s because of this and blah, blah, blah…” That made me mad.

Julie Gunlock:

It made me mad as well.

Cathy Holman:

I didn’t think there was a need for that. Why? How would that make the case better?

Julie Gunlock:

Well, the other thing is, I think these girls, it makes them vulnerable to these Antifa attacks and people doxxing them. Also, looking back at their lives and saying, “Once these women want to get a job, will that affect them?”

Cathy Holman:

That’s what I mean. I don’t understand how them being public with their names made the case any more valid. To me, I felt like it was a scare tactic from the judge to maybe just get the case thrown out because he didn’t think they’d be brave enough to do it, and then he wouldn’t have to deal with it. I don’t know. Again, I don’t really know how the legal system works.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Well, Cathy, we’re going to keep… You’re coming on next month again. We’ll ask them. We may update this story and see what happens there. I think on our next podcast, I’d love to talk to you about summer plans. That is something that stresses moms out, especially of younger kids when-

Cathy Holman:

I’m a rebel when it comes to that.

Julie Gunlock:

Well, I’m at a phase where I don’t need to worry about that anymore. One of my sons will have a job. My other one will be on so many sports camps and sports events. And then the other one will probably be in camp, but basically they can take care of themselves. And the biggest hassle for me is staying quiet. We have a really small house, and so you may see a kid wandering through the next pod when on summer podcast.

Cathy Holman:

My kids are all downstairs because we don’t have school on Fridays. I was like, “I’m doing a podcast. Go downstairs and watch TV.”

Julie Gunlock:

Yes, I know. The media is hard when they’re home. So let’s chat about that and we’ll do another news roundup next month. How’s that sound?

Cathy Holman:

Perfect. Sounds wonderful.

Julie Gunlock:

Thanks for coming on, Cathy. I love chatting with you.

Cathy Holman:

Thanks for having me.

Julie Gunlock:

The Bespoke Parenting Podcast with Julie Gunlock is a production of the Independent Women’s Forum. You can send comments and questions to me at [email protected]. This is a big request, but please help me out by hitting the subscription button and leaving me a comment or review on Apple Podcast, Acast, Google Play YouTube or iwf.org. Hang in there parents and go bespoke.