On this episode of the Bespoke Parenting Podcast, host Julie Gunlock talks once again to podcast regular Cathy Holman, the Prairie Wife in Heels. Cathy recently took her whole family (five kids!) on an overseas vacation. She offers travel tips, dos and don’ts, advice on keeping kids entertained and rested, and guidance on ways to avoid overscheduling your family vacation. Have a trip planned in the future? Domestic or abroad, you’ll want to listen to this fun episode.

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TRANSCRIPT

Julie Gunlock:

Hey, everyone. I’m Julie Gunlock, host of the Bespoke Parenting Hour. For those new to the program, this podcast is focused on how parents should custom tailor their parenting style to fit what’s best for their families, themselves, and most importantly, their kids. Today it is another episode with my favorite guest, Cathy Holman. Hey, Cathy.

Cathy Holman:

Hello. How are you?

Julie Gunlock:

I’m doing well. Cathy is better known as Prairie Wife. She is the mom of five, who lives in Wyoming. And who began PrairieWifeInHeels.com, go to her website, in 2013 to spread her message. I love her message of living life with grit and grace, which is certainly what we do around here. More grit probably than Grace. But Cathy is a regular on the show. Again, I love the perspective of a Wyoming mom. You, my dear, went on a very fun adventure recently. We’re going to talk a lot about traveling. Your entire family went on a big trip to Italy. So we’re going to talk the ins and outs of family travel, dos and don’ts. Also, really specifically about international travel because I think that is a whole other bottle of wax for people. Just want to hear about your trip there. But also, I want to touch on COVID because I’m really curious. I haven’t been overseas. I was overseas when COVID was still raging. So I’m kind of curious about that as well. Let’s start off. Tell us where you went and what it was like.

Cathy Holman:

We have five kids. I think you mentioned that. For the first week of the trip, we actually had our Spanish exchange student with us.

Julie Gunlock:

Ah.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. He was with us for that first week, so we actually had six kids for the first week. We were like our own tour group. People were looking for the lanyards around our neck. My husband and I knew that we wanted to take the kids internationally after we had traveled overseas a couple different times to France and to England. We decided to pick somewhere we had never been before, so we could have that panic and humbling experience together that you get from overseas traveling.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Yeah.

Cathy Holman:

The number one thing that I would tell people is don’t put it off. Don’t put it off. I think it is important to have kids that can handle walking. Because anywhere you go overseas, specifically in Europe, I would say you’re walking anywhere between four and eight miles a day.

Julie Gunlock:

It’s true.

Cathy Holman:

Make sure your kids are old enough to handle that. The strollers, can I just be totally real?

Julie Gunlock:

Be totally real.

Cathy Holman:

They don’t work on cobblestone. I saw people dropping their kids and those kids flying out of those strollers left and right. I’m not even joking.

Julie Gunlock:

Really?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, because everywhere is cobblestone. It’s uneven. The umbrella strollers, which is really the only thing you can travel overseas with without it being a major pain, they just don’t work.

Julie Gunlock:

Okay, I’m going to interrupt. I’m so sorry.

Cathy Holman:

Do it.

Julie Gunlock:

I’m like, “I’m going to want to talk the whole thing.”

Cathy Holman:

No, that’s what we’re doing.

Julie Gunlock:

Did you see any Italian parents or Italian moms?

Cathy Holman:

Yes.

Julie Gunlock:

What do they use?

Cathy Holman:

They have those … I call them the swanky ones because I have never seen them in Wyoming, but I see them when I go back home to Milwaukee. The ones that are … they look like the old school prams. You know what I mean?

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, those, with the bigger tires.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, exactly. You can tell they have hydraulics.

Julie Gunlock:

Suspension. Yes, exactly.

Cathy Holman:

The only people I saw with those umbrella strollers you could tell were tourists. This broke my heart. We saw so many retired couples, because that’s what everyone does. They’re like, “I’m going to retire and we’re finally going to take that trip.” In Pompeii, they were dropping like flies. The heat and the unevenness. In Pompeii there’s this huge … the road where you walk, the curbs are this big. They were tripping and falling, and the walkers. It broke my heart. It really broke my heart. So don’t wait. Don’t wait.

Julie Gunlock:

But it’s interesting, it’s like, “Don’t wait.” But at the same time, it might be better to wait until your kids are mobile. Meaning-

Cathy Holman:

Well, that’s what I’m saying. Our youngest is eight and she was totally fine. We walked 10 miles the day we went to Florence and she was totally fine. Now, we have active kids athletes. We hike as a family. I really feel like this is a trip where you need to prep your kids. You need to, so everyone knows expectations. Take them around if you live in a city, get them used to walking and things like that. That eight year old, she was able to handle later nights and she wasn’t a disaster the next day. Though, we kind of planned our schedule, which I’ll get into. We’re hopping all over the place, per usual.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Cathy Holman:

But she also was able to ask questions. She came back with a lot of knowledge, which is what we wanted. Our kids, our oldest is 17. The way that our 17, 15 and 13 year old took … what they took home from the trip was different than what our 10 year old and our eight year old, but no less valuable. They all had the historical aspect and the cultural aspect that they took home with them and they could understand. So for me, I feel like maybe you could handle six if you’ve got a sturdy six year old or if you’re willing to hook them on your back for part of it. By the whole don’t wait thing, start saving.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Cathy Holman:

Most expensive part … Because that’s what everyone wants to know, “What’s your budget?” Now, of course, not everyone is having eight/seven people that they’re having to get over there, but the most expensive part is the airplane tickets. Once you are there, it is a hundred percent doable to do it on a budget. We airbnbed. We didn’t stay at a hotel at all, we airbnbed.

Julie Gunlock:

I’m going to interrupt right there. People of large … First of all, if you have two kids, you can go anywhere in Europe, right?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

It’s easy. You get one hotel room, usually they … It used to be in Europe, this is still true in Ireland, because we’re going there, but they still put twin beds, the hotel.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, and then you just push them …

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah, you push them together. They’ve gotten a lot more modern in terms of having two doubles. You’ll never find two queens.

Cathy Holman:

No.

Julie Gunlock:

Or maybe you did, but it’s like maybe two doubles if you’re lucky. But for bigger families, Airbnb is absolutely the way to go because you’ll be buying three hotel rooms. Because again, there’s a lot of twin beds.

Cathy Holman:

Also, too, with the ages of our kids, it’s just not appropriate to have our 17 year old sharing a room with our eight-year-old girl. Our 17 year old … it just doesn’t work for us.

Julie Gunlock:

Right. Right.

Cathy Holman:

We made sure that we got three bedroom Airbnbs. So the boys would have a room and the girls would have a room, and then my husband and I would have our own room. It worked really, really well. I actually have a post at PrairieWifeInHeels.com that shares the exact Airbnbs, but also tips of what to look for.

Number one thing is go with a Superhost when it’s overseas. Yes, it costs more, but it is a hundred percent worth it. They will get you your van to pick you up from the airport, the little person with your name. They’ll schedule all of that for you. They’re just on point. Those Airbnbs have great locations. So we were maybe five minutes away from Vatican City when we stayed in Rome for the first week. We were there for one more day at the end, and we were three minutes away from the Trevi Fountain. The villa that we stayed at the second week on the Amalfi Coast in Vico Equense, I mean, did you see those pictures we had?

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, I did.

Cathy Holman:

I teared up. The gates to the villa opened up … Because again, even if it’s a Superhost, you never know. Read the reviews. Read the reviews, but still. It opened up. It’s a terrace with a jacuzzi and chairs and a couch, and the ocean and Mount Vesuvius.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, I couldn’t believe those photos. I could not believe those photos.

Cathy Holman:

I teared up. I was like, “Is this my freaking life?” And so affordable.

Julie Gunlock:

I might have not liked you for a few minutes.

Cathy Holman:

I know. It’s okay.

Julie Gunlock:

I might’ve been like, “Jealous.”

Cathy Holman:

It’s okay. This is where I-

Julie Gunlock:

I have to tell you, you put up one set of pictures of a really fancy meal. Obviously it was just you and your husband, which I was laughing because I was like, “When you travel with five kids, they get the 7/11 food and you guys are going out to the …” which I’m totally in favor of. They were absolutely stunning photos.

Cathy Holman:

Oh, my gosh. The fact of the matter is, too, again, with the kids, prep them for the fact that you are not going to be a whiner about … I don’t know how often I praised Jesus that my kids are not picky eaters, because with the language barrier, one time we accidentally ordered tuna fish and onion pizza. Do not recommend. But we’re like, “We’re eating it.” And then another time, again, when you’re out of Rome, in those smaller cities, a lot of people don’t speak English. That’s when you’re really put to the test. In Rome, almost everyone had … Because it’s a tourist town, right?

Julie Gunlock:

Right.

Cathy Holman:

We were in Vico at this tiny little place, and somehow my husband ordered a bowl of just lettuce and two hamburger patties on the side.

Julie Gunlock:

How very keto. It’s like suddenly he was an American woman, right?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

American middle-aged woman, who’s like, “I’ll just have the lettuce and the hamburger bun.”

Cathy Holman:

I don’t know if they were looking at me and figured, “Mm-hmm, that’s for her.” Do you know what I mean? And then my kids ate octopus. The octopus had the squishy, bulby heads and the eyeballs still. They’re eating it, and I’m like …

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Cathy Holman:

Next to them. So the eating thing, again, prep your kids. Prep your kids mentally for, “This is how it’s going to be.” Take them out to maybe a couple of restaurants in town even and force them to try new things there so it goes better. Food allergies. I can’t imagine trying to navigate that, honestly.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. I think for people … For instance, if your kid has a peanut allergy, don’t go to Thailand, right?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

Or don’t go … I think that is a whole other level of … it must limit you when you have these allergies. I don’t really understand what’s happening in Europe because I don’t see a big movement there. It’s certainly not done. I don’t know if people in Italy whose children have peanut allergies, if they just … I guess maybe that … I don’t know of a lot of Italian food that has peanuts in it, that has that ingredient.

Cathy Holman:

They don’t do peanut butter over there. If they have Reese’s, it’s an American candy. It’s not their candy.

Julie Gunlock:

It’s not like a Frenchman’s sitting there at his kitchen counter with a tablespoon of peanut butter. Maybe. Maybe.

Cathy Holman:

Our Spanish exchange student, I don’t think he’d ever had peanut butter til-

Julie Gunlock:

Interesting.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. And root beer isn’t a thing.

Julie Gunlock:

Another reason to love America. Okay.

Cathy Holman:

Peanut butter.

Julie Gunlock:

But yeah, that’s interesting.

Cathy Holman:

There’s the food … Oh, and then the other thing with Airbnb, the other tip is the bathrooms there, if you stay at an Airbnb, and oftentimes the hotel, the showers are not the same as ours. There is a reason I chopped all my hair off before I went, because mama learned that lesson last year when I was over there for three weeks. The water pressure, debatable. The heat and cold, debatable. You could have 18 different temperatures while you’re showering. You need to go quick. This is an apartment from the 1700s. This is an apartment from the 1800s. This is not our electric water heaters that go nonstop and you can shower. And then, also, the showers are like … I don’t know how … like a time capsule, maybe, is the best way to describe them.

Julie Gunlock:

You know what they’re like, they’re like in campers.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

You know in campers?

Cathy Holman:

Yes.

Julie Gunlock:

You really are like this. I actually went on my honeymoon to Rome.

Cathy Holman:

Oh, fun.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. My husband and I had a great time. But I’ll never forget, we were staying at this really exquisite hotel, right by the Spanish Steps.

Cathy Holman:

Oh, a nice area.

Julie Gunlock:

We checked in. It was so weird because it wasn’t even like a … It was. It was actually, you walked into this small corridor. You went up a few stairs and there was this lovely desk, this beautiful antique desk, and a woman was just sitting there. That was the check-in. It was bizarre. And then we were getting ready to go up to the room and a couple came in. They had come down the elevator. They went to the desk and they were complaining because their bathroom was too small.

Cathy Holman:

That’s how they all are. Even the swankiest places.

Julie Gunlock:

I remember, as an American, standing there going, “Oh, gosh.” Because I had traveled as a young girl and been overseas quite a bit. And I’ve lived overseas. So I was sort of cringing because I don’t think a lot of people understand that it truly is not the … It’s a different space, so prepare your kids for that. Prepare yourself for that.

Cathy Holman:

Yes. Yeah. My husband even knew … He’s 6’3, 220. He’s this big huge cowboy. Anytime he went to take a shower, we were dying laughing because you’d hear thump … thump … You know what I’m talking about. His quote, when he tells people about it, he’s like, “God forbid you drop the soap, just leave it there. Or you have to open the door, get out, reach down, get it, and go back in.”

Julie Gunlock:

Or call the wife.

Cathy Holman:

But those things matter. Like you said, they could ruin your trip if you’re not prepared. So the bathroom situation. Make sure it’s a Superhost, if you’re airbnbing. Read all the reviews. Make sure it’s near a train station. That’s another way you can save money over there. For 18 euros, we got a week long pass on the metro. The two littlest didn’t need it. I think it’s like 13 and up need it, 12 and under, you don’t. So we just made sure that our Airbnb was near the metro. That’s how we got everywhere.

Julie Gunlock:

Let me ask. You went to different areas. You said you went to Pompeii. You went to somewhere on the coast. Was that Pompeii?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, Vico.

Julie Gunlock:

Vico.

Cathy Holman:

That was Vico.

Julie Gunlock:

And Rome.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. And Florence.

Julie Gunlock:

And Florence. Oh, Florence. Oh, my gosh. How did you travel in between? Did you rent a car? Because that’s a load of people. Or did you just train?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. When we were in Rome, like I said, the Airbnb people, they set up our van to pick us up. Which, we do not have time for the story, but we actually got with the wrong driver. Anyway.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, my God. It’s like that scene in Romancing the Stone where she goes to Cartagena. Tell me you know what I’m talking about.

Cathy Holman:

Yes, but we didn’t die. We figured it out. Anyway. That was funny. Haha, language barrier.

Julie Gunlock:

Someone watching this … because I could tell you did not get that reference, but someone watching this is going to know, Romancing the Stone.

Cathy Holman:

No, I’ve seen that movie.

Julie Gunlock:

You know?

Cathy Holman:

Yes, I’ve seen that movie.

Julie Gunlock:

Okay. All right. All right.

Cathy Holman:

Yes. Come on, I am a woman of the ’80s. Anyway, in Rome, it was metro. We walked everywhere. We would just leave our apartment. We would maybe look for some reviews. But honestly, again, those Airbnb hosts, they told us where the grocery store was, which … We’re going to bounce everywhere. I apologize, whoever is watching this. Saving money. We went to the grocery store and bought breakfast food. So we never went out for breakfast. We would just have fresh croissants, fruit, bacon, cheese, and then we would also make sandwiches. Some of the places to wander around. We always had a backpack.

Julie Gunlock:

Smart.

Cathy Holman:

It’s totally fine to take a backpack into museums and churches and things like that. They expect it. That’s another way you can save money with Airbnb, especially with as many people as we have. So in Rome, we walked, we took the metro. And then to go to Florence, we did the high speed train. We took the metro to the train station.

Julie Gunlock:

That’s what we did. Yep.

Cathy Holman:

Yep. Day trip to Florence on the high speed train. Walked everywhere in Florence and came back. And then for the second week we rented a van.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, dear. Here we go.

Cathy Holman:

There is actually a video of us-

Julie Gunlock:

In Italy, they drive on the American side of the road, so it’s-

Cathy Holman:

Yes.

Julie Gunlock:

Okay.

Cathy Holman:

Yes. We had a guidebook that our priest actually gave us from when he went to Italy that had common phrases. My favorite one in there, which we did not learn how to say was, “If you don’t like my driving, get off the sidewalk.”

Julie Gunlock:

That’s awesome.

Cathy Holman:

That would a hundred percent sums up drivers. They do not follow the rules. They don’t wear seat belts. And they text and drive the whole freaking time. They don’t even pretend that they’re not. They don’t even pretend.

Julie Gunlock:

I was an exchange student in Italy. I spent a lot of time in Italy when I was 16. My host brother … This was through Rotary, so I lived with a family. Very wealthy family, actually. I’ll never forget, we were taking a day trip. Me and my host sister were taking a day trip. We needed to get to the train station and there was traffic. He drove on the sidewalk. I was screaming my head off because this is not done. Plus, I grew up in a tiny town of 2,000 people in the middle of Illinois. He got up … I mean, it was like a scene from some stupid movie where people were running. They were running out of the way, but there was no yelling at him because they were like, “Well, they have to catch their train. Of course you’re going to go on the sidewalk.” It was shocking.

Cathy Holman:

To cross the street, forget about it. You don’t look. You don’t wait for a gap, because there’s never going to be one. You just start walking and they stop. The people are going with their babies. The old ladies are going. We’re waiting for some kind of gap. They just look at us, roll their eyes, and they’re like … The cars are like … So we’re just like … It’s a whole new world.

I was actually terrified about the renting a van. Again, all these details, PrairieWifeInHeels.com. All this stuff. We had a lady that I paid like 25 euros to that just kind of gave us the bare bones details about where we should go. One of the things she told us is where we would be able to drive the van and what parts of Italy we wouldn’t be able to. That’s part of the reason we stayed in Vico is the streets were big enough, we could drive a van. Even with that though, there is a video you can find on my social media of where a bus almost kills every single one of us. It’s the big walls. We’re driving up the cliff. This is when we were done in Vico and headed back to Rome. We’re driving up. We go around a blind corner. We’re in a van and it’s a bus, and it’s about to get us. So my husband just drives straight up into a driveway.

Julie Gunlock:

Smart.

Cathy Holman:

You could hear me nervous laughing, screaming. As my husband says, he’s like, “I know why Mario Kart is Mario Kart, because that’s what driving’s like.”

Julie Gunlock:

You know what? The smartest thing to do as you get there is be a little reckless. I mean, I know that’s probably not great advice. I’m going to get sued.

Cathy Holman:

No, it’s true.

Julie Gunlock:

You got to drive an Italian. You do.

Cathy Holman:

Be bold. Be bold.

Julie Gunlock:

You have to be bold. Honestly, I think people who are super straight and narrow, follow-the-rule drivers … You know what I mean?

Cathy Holman:

I should not drive there.

Julie Gunlock:

My husband. My husband, okay, they would panic, right?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

But if you’re kind of a bit of a risk taker-

Cathy Holman:

A rebel?

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah, you’ll be okay. Scooting into that driveway, that’s just smart. That’s just looking ahead. So what would you-

Cathy Holman:

I swear, he spent the whole entire time, but we only … I’m going to be honest, we only took that van to get from Rome to Vico, and then we just left it in Vico that whole week and we walked everywhere. And then we used it again to get back to Rome. We took the metro, all that stuff. Even to get to Pompeii, we just walked to the train station and then went on the train to Pompeii.

Julie Gunlock:

Well, this is the reason that Italians eat so much pasta, you know?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

And they’re all … They’re not all slender. I hate that thing, when people are like, “There’s no fat people in France.”

Cathy Holman:

That’s not true. There-

Julie Gunlock:

I’m like, “Have you been there?” I’m like, “I’ve seen a lot.”

Cathy Holman:

Every shape and size.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. But for the most part, people are relatively slender.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

Maybe a little bit-

Cathy Holman:

They’re active.

Julie Gunlock:

They’re active.

Cathy Holman:

Right? They are. Staying in Vico, we stayed right by the ocean is where this villa was. Which by the way has been in the guy … Masimo’s family since the 1700s. The history he told us about it, there was literally a Greek column and a Roman urn as part of their decoration because they found it when they were … Just amazing, the history there. But there was 240 steps to get from where our villa was up into the town proper, where we ate, where the grocery store was.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, wow.

Cathy Holman:

So there’s video, too, of us-

Julie Gunlock:

How often did you have to take those steps?

Cathy Holman:

Well, I only went into town twice. But my husband is very stir crazy, so he is not cool with just lounging and sitting. Whereas the kids and I are like, “Yes, please.” He would wake up at five in the morning, God bless him, throw his backpack on, and then go hike up the steps, have a cup of coffee, and then come back with breakfast.

Julie Gunlock:

Loaded.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

That’s great. That’s great.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, it worked for everybody.

Julie Gunlock:

I think one thing that’s really important is, if you do plan a trip overseas, understanding. We went to Portugal last … Was it last year or last … Yes, last Thanksgiving. That is called the City of Seven Hills. That’s because it’s hilly. I mean, if you’re in the port of Lisbon … Oh, I’m sorry, did I say Lisbon? I said Portugal. We went to Lisbon, which is in Portugal. If you’re in the Bay of Lisbon … because a lot of cruise ships go into Lisbon. You look up, it’s just built into these big mountains. There’s supposed to be seven hills. We did a lot of … It felt like being on a StairMaster.

But this is the interesting thing, is that Lisbon has built in all these elevators. It’s the weirdest thing. If you were to look down, you could be standing here, and then you want to go here, so you just take … But one is up here and one is down here, so you take an elevator. But literally, the roads are just really close to each other. It’s just that one’s on a different elevation, so you take these elevators up. That was some mercy there. They also have these little funiculars, I think they’re called. They’re these little trams that go up.

Cathy Holman:

That’s cool.

Julie Gunlock:

But the bottom line, you can’t avoid. I mean, sometimes we didn’t want to. We wanted to walk. We wanted to walk along the streets. So being physically … I mean, look, I’m not the most physically fit person, but I have a lot of … I’m able to walk a lot, and I like walking a lot. But it was hard. It was really hard. Actually, we’re taking the kids on a trip this year, overseas, and walking is a major part of it. It’s what you do. I am working really hard. I’m walking a lot more now.

Cathy Holman:

Good. That’s great.

Julie Gunlock:

Trying to get my stamina up. I think there’s also personally preparing yourself for these trips or you won’t enjoy it. You really won’t.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. Wear the comfortable footwear. I did a whole series on what to pack because, especially as women, let’s just own it, we want to look cute. We want to look nice in the pictures.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes.

Cathy Holman:

It is important. I think it kept us from being harassed by a lot more people because we weren’t dressed like, “Look at me, I’m an American,” right?

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, yeah.

Cathy Holman:

There’s something to be said for that. And then leading with that, too, especially overseas, there are rules about decorum for what you wear when you enter a church. This top would be fine for a church because my shoulders are covered. A spaghetti strap tank is not respectful. There’s signs outside the church.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes.

Cathy Holman:

Same with shorts. Your shorts need to be knee length, even for men, if you’re going to be going into a church. Instead of complaining about it and saying, “Well, I’m just going … They can’t tell me what to do,” embrace it. You also will be treated a lot better at restaurants and everywhere like that, if it’s obvious that you’re making an effort to be respectful of the culture that’s over there. Wear your cute little … Our fashion sneakers we all wear now, like the Adidas ones, that’s what you need to wear over there. Just embrace it. You do not wear high heels. Cobblestones. Cobblestones. Do not wear cute platform sandals unless you are only going to be walking for two minutes to get to dinner. Just embrace the sneakers and a cute sandal.

Julie Gunlock:

It’s so funny, there was an article in the Daily Mail recently, and they were sort of … The headline was something like Tiffany Trump … She was in Europe. They had these pictures of her in heels, but then later she was walking around the streets and she had total flats on. I guess it was newsworthy because she’s not normally in flats. I’m thinking, “Has this reporter ever been overseas? You don’t walk in heels-“

Cathy Holman:

No, you’ll be miserable.

Julie Gunlock:

You’ll hurt yourself.

Cathy Holman:

And don’t buy new shoes that week. Like you said, prepare. The message for success for overseas travel is prepare. Prepare yourself mentally, physically. Prepare your kids if you’re going to be taking them. Everyone was making-

Julie Gunlock:

I love it. This is me too. This is me. This is what I do. That’s pretty thick, Cathy.

Cathy Holman:

Well, so many kids. So many kids. And we were there for two weeks. We booked … I would say, I think we only ended up actually booking four tours. A lot of the other stuff we just knew where we wanted to be and we just kind of mapped out. If you are going to be booking a tour overseas, do it at least three months ahead of time, especially if you’re going during tourist season. We were just at the beginning of it. I went to buy our train tickets to Florence two months ahead of time and was not able to get all of us on the same train-

Julie Gunlock:

You’re kidding?

Cathy Holman:

… because it was so packed. Yeah. We went. When we were there, we talked to them and we were able to fix it. But as far as the online stuff, this is a trip you plan for. And then I printed off … Obviously aside from the airplane tickets, our big splurge is we rented a boat to take us on a tour on the Amalfi Coast. Again, I have the exact tour and links. It was the best thing we’ve ever done, because they picked us up. We had our captain, Andrea. He took us to not only … He just pulled up right to the Amalfi dock. We got off, ran around, did all the things, and then we just texted him, and he just pulled right up and got us. Same with Positano. Which, by the way, I was not a huge fan of. It was super touristy. I’m just going to be honest.

Julie Gunlock:

Interesting.

Cathy Holman:

We referred to it as the Jackson Hole of Italy because-

Julie Gunlock:

Fascinating.

Cathy Holman:

… it was so touristy, I thought.

Julie Gunlock:

By the way, I love Jackson Hole. So take her recommendations.

Cathy Holman:

I know, but it’s not real Wyoming.

Julie Gunlock:

I get it.

Cathy Holman:

It’s not real Wyoming.

Julie Gunlock:

I get it. I get it.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

When we were in Portugal, we did one tour that we actually paid to have a driver and a tour guide. I hope he never listens to this, he wasn’t the best, but it was for Fatima. Part of the reason we took it-

Cathy Holman:

Amazing. Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

… we really wanted to be quite serious and sober, because I didn’t want to be screaming about directions or something right before we go to this referent place. He took us there, but then we also went to a city nearby that had a church that was the headquarters of the Crusaders.

Cathy Holman:

That’s cool.

Julie Gunlock:

It was amazing. You know, like a ninth century church. It was just astonishing. But we did that because we knew there were several stops and it was all in one tour. It was pricey. But again, they showed up with a van, very comfortable van for all of us. Because we’re a family of five, so we’re not exactly tiny either. It was worth it. So I kind of feel like if you’re going to splurge, if you have-

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, do that the one place you want to go right. I think doing that for one part, the most important part, is worth it. The other tours that we took were larger group tours. But now, with technology, what they do is they give you an earpiece that’s connected to the tour guide, so you can hear them right in your ear while you’re-

Julie Gunlock:

Great. Oh, my gosh.

Cathy Holman:

So much better.

Julie Gunlock:

Let me tell you, if you’ve ever been on one of these tours, where they’re in St. Peter’s for instance, and they’re yelling over … You can’t really hear. You’re in the back and you’re kind of competing for space.

Cathy Holman:

Not anymore, baby.

Julie Gunlock:

That’s awesome.

Cathy Holman:

Not anymore. Yeah, that is amazing. Speaking of tours and scheduling, this is what I did, is I did a spreadsheet. This is the first week in Rome, and then this is the second week in Vico. As you can see-Yeah, Vico is super empty, because you have … I highly recommend the last part of your vacation is downtime. You cannot be going this level every single day or you’re going to be miserable. You are going to miss out on seeing some things, but it is worth it to have a down day. We have this one day where we went and saw all the hotspots. Because of course, you go to the Trevi Fountain, you’re like, “Okay, here it is.” And then you go to the Spanish Steps and you’re like, “Here it is.” You don’t need to spend two hours there, right?

Julie Gunlock:

Right. It’s like the scene when the vacation family go to the Grand Canyon. They’re all standing there and they’re like, “Okay.”

Cathy Holman:

“There it is. All right. We saw it.” Then what we would do is … So we would have a really busy day and then the next day would start a little bit later.

Julie Gunlock:

Smart.

Cathy Holman:

Kind of doing that. And then we left one whole day in Rome at the end with nothing planned, so we could go visit something again, go to our favorite restaurant again. I really recommend alternating the busy and the lazy, the busy and the lazy. Your kids will wreck. You will have hot, sweaty, melted children, if you are seeing … Everyone’s going to be miserable. So just let go. You’re not going to see everything. As a family, pick the things you have to see and put it on there. That’s what we did. In Vico, Pompeii was a must see. So we made sure we had that. We had our boat trip day. And then the rest of it, we just lounged around. We went to the beach, which was a two minute walk away from our villa. We slept in. So that way when we came back, we weren’t still-

Julie Gunlock:

Well, I think sometimes because you’re overseas and it’s not easy to get there, there’s this sense of, “Got to pack it all in and see everything,” and have this incredible experience-

Cathy Holman:

Not worth it.

Julie Gunlock:

… but it’s a way to ruin it.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, it’s not worth it.

Julie Gunlock:

When we decided to go to Portugal, I thought, “Oh, but we have to go to Porto,” because Porto is the home of port. I really love Port and going to have some port.

Cathy Holman:

I mean, that’s a good enough reason right there.

Julie Gunlock:

And then I was like, “Okay, there’s port in Lisbon,” I decided. I’m really glad, we only took one day trip. Actually, that’s not true because we did go to Sintra, which is this almost fairytale castle, but that’s only about a 30 minute train ride from Lisbon. So the rest of the half of the day … Actually, we went to Sintra and then came home and relaxed. So it wasn’t like, “And then we went there and there and there.” We have very much a similar philosophy. But I do think that in some cases, look, let’s be real, especially in this economy, people cannot afford this stuff. They have the opportunity to go. Maybe they save up, like you said. I know you saved. I’m saving for our trip coming up here this year. I think people need to resist that urge to have to see everything. You want to see a few select things, pick them out.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, pick the big ones.

Julie Gunlock:

I love your idea of alternating. Also, if you have one week … You had two weeks, so you could go to more than one place. But if you had one week … Because we had about 10 days in Portugal. We just stayed in one place.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, absolutely.

Julie Gunlock:

I think there is something to, also, kids feeling settled. So they each had … Originally, we were supposed to go to Portugal with my parents. And then my parents kind of wimped out because they were convinced … I love my parents, but they were convinced they were going to get to Portugal … I’m not kidding you. They were convinced they were going to get to Portugal, get COVID and never come home. They were like-

Cathy Holman:

As in die or as in never test negative?

Julie Gunlock:

I’m not actually sure.

Cathy Holman:

I’d be okay with getting stuck in Italy for another two weeks.

Julie Gunlock:

Oh, my God. I had a friend who got stuck in London. She had to stay a week and I was like, “Oh, poor you.”

Cathy Holman:

Oh, violin.

Julie Gunlock:

My parents were just … I don’t really know what was going on with my parents, but it was still COVIDy time. We all had to have our vaccines and our certifications and stuff like that, which leads to the next … Anyway, so they didn’t go. We had a huge Airbnb because, originally, we’d gotten it so-

Cathy Holman:

They were.

Julie Gunlock:

… and then we weren’t going to find another one. So we just had this enormous Airbnb. So each kid got their own room. It was really nice for them to go and settle in and have time to rest. I want to get over before … I really want to ask you, were there any COVID measures? Is that over? What was that like?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. It was really interesting for me because I traveled overseas last year, almost exactly a year ago. So then to go again now. Last year, the day before I flew home is when they removed having to test negative before you could get on an airplane. That was super exciting for me because my friends that went with me left a week … or two weeks earlier and they had to test negative before … Yeah. That was last year. Okay. This year, nothing. No masks anywhere, if you didn’t … I mean, of course, some people are still wearing them, but nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing.

Julie Gunlock:

The last time, the Portugal trip, after that, I went, actually, to a conference, an educational conference, and I brought my son with me to Ireland, masking, testing 24 hours. The stress of that. It was tough.

Cathy Holman:

Nothing.

Julie Gunlock:

Good to hear that that’s all done.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, absolutely nothing.

Julie Gunlock:

Italy was about the hottest spot besides China, so I’m glad to see that that’s-

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, it surprised me.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. The other thing about overseas travel is they don’t have public restrooms. Or if they do, you have to pay a euro. Or you have to pay whatever. There is no just like, “Oh, you can go use the …” No. Absolutely not. You have to buy something.

Julie Gunlock:

There’s no Wendy’s that you’re just like in and out. You have to actually … There’s usually a counter.

Cathy Holman:

Yep.

Julie Gunlock:

I would go to the counter and have a sparkling water, and then you can use the facilities. First of all, it’s not done. Some business owners might be sort of nice to an American tourist, but it’s a bad look. A very bad look.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. You have to have money to tip the … you’re right, to pay the attendant.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. Just have a backpack with you wherever you go because you want sunscreen, water bottles. You need to have your umbrella in there. Just all the things. And put toilet paper in there, too, because some of the ones, even the pay public ones, do not have toilet paper. Again, things we just don’t even think about as Americans, but they don’t have public restrooms. I’m trying to think of any other really good things to remember. Have fun. Don’t get stressed out. And the kids are going to fight thing. The kids are going to fight, so just-

Julie Gunlock:

Well, yeah.

Cathy Holman:

Like, “Come on.”

Julie Gunlock:

One thing we did … What we did with our kids is we taught them yes, no, thank you. You know?

Cathy Holman:

Yes, thank you for that.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes.

Cathy Holman:

Otherwise you’re rude. Otherwise you’re a rude American. You have to try. You have to try. You have to try. You’re going to mispronounce it terribly. You’re going to mispronounce everything on the menu terribly. You have to try anyway, otherwise it’s rude. It’s rude. Think about people here when we’re … A lot of Americans, if they were at Walmart and someone would come up to them speaking a different language, they’d be like, “You’re in a America, speak American,” but yet they assume when they go overseas that everyone’s going to speak English. No, no, no. Like, “No, you need to try.”

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. A lot of European countries, if you’re French, you may speak another language, or you just know the basics of that other country. It’s not hard. Kids love learning that stuff. And they love saying it. They love … It’s a fun game.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

I think that’s an easy thing to do. One last question. We are big coach flyers. Okay. I’m terrible. This is terrible. This is something, it kind of gives me a stomachache, but I don’t mark my points. I don’t log my points. I’m terrible about it. And I go overseas fairly … You know?

Cathy Holman:

Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

So don’t talk about that because I’ll have an anxiety attack. But my question is, how do you entertain the kids when they’re flying? Are they all on tablets? I forgive people for that. Like, “You want to put them on a … God bless. Watch 10 movies.”

Cathy Holman:

That’s the other reason why you want to think very carefully about the age of your children, and why I say six and up is really the best for overseas travel. We didn’t even sit in the same row as our kids. They were right behind … Because again, coach, we found an amazing deal. We were like, “And done. It’s never going to be any cheaper.” They had their individual tablets, but international flights have TV on there and they have thousands. I am the super mean, strict tech mom. So for them to have nine hours straight where I wasn’t like, “What are you doing?” I just told them, I’m like, “Do whatevs. I don’t care. Be quiet.” So yeah, their own tech and watching TV. My youngest who, like I said, she’s eight, she had some Barbies and things like that. But honestly, they were so excited to be on the plane. And then just watching TV.

We turned the cell phones off for our two oldest. They brought their phones so they could take pictures, but they could only use their phones in the Airbnb. So it was tech free the whole entire time. And then when we were at the Airbnb, just like I would wind down, we let them have some tech time at night. Like you said, your kids get home, they just want to be away from each other and crash. So we allowed tech time, reading their Kindle and things like that.

Julie Gunlock:

That’s what we did.

Cathy Holman:

But out and about, that was one of the best things about it is all of us, we didn’t want to … I got an international plan and so did my husband, but you don’t want to-

Julie Gunlock:

No.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. So no, no-

Julie Gunlock:

It’s so funny. There was one picture you … I think you texted it to me, of your son holding two different things of food.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, he had gelato and-

Julie Gunlock:

One was gelato and a slice of pizza or something.

Cathy Holman:

Those sandwiches that they have in Florence that they’re famous for. There’s some big cheese, tomato sandwich Florence is-

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah, God bless.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, so my 17 year …

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah, I remember. We were talking about … I just wanted to wrap this up to get back to that, because we were talking about food at one point. You said we would pack sandwiches. That’s one other thing is I think Americans tend to be like, “Three meals a day, breakfast, lunch and dinner.” One thing that’s wonderful about when you’re touring is … I don’t think Italians do that. I don’t think this is necessarily like, “Oh, when in Rome.” But I think this is a fun thing to do, and we’ve done this, where we don’t necessarily say, “Okay, we’re going to stop for lunch.” There’s a lot of street eating. You just walk around and see different things, and try something. You’re kind of fed throughout the day, stopping at different places and having different things.

Cathy Holman:

Yes.

Julie Gunlock:

I thought that was really particularly fun for kids and a way to get them to try things. Rather than sitting down to a meal, you just stop at different places and try different things.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. And we let them pick. So where I talked about … We usually would walk about a mile to get wherever we’re eating. Each night we would be like, “All right, Carter, your turn to go pick. Where are we going to eat?” They would just walk off and leave.

And then one other thing, it is so inexpensive to eat there. First of all, just at the grocery store, three loaves of fresh bread, meat and cheese, all the freshest and half a watermelon was 18 euros, which is about $20. Enough for breakfast and lunch for our family was 20 bucks. We fed at a very nice restaurant, our whole entire family, including our Spanish exchange student, so that’s like three teenagers, two adults, full to the brim, rolling us out, 77 euros, which again is like $82. That’s what it freaking cost us at McDonald’s the other day, to feed our family.

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. Yes.

Cathy Holman:

Again, the most expensive part, I promise you, is getting over there.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Honestly-

Cathy Holman:

And then once you’re there-

Julie Gunlock:

I know it’s really difficult. Save a little bit at a time and you’ll get there.

Cathy Holman:

Yes. Yes.

Julie Gunlock:

The other thing is to put alerts on your phone. I have an alert on my phone for certain airports I would like to fly into. You can find deals. It is astonishing some of these deals. But this is the thing you got to do. This is the last thing I’ll say. You got to pull the trigger. You mentioned this. You said, “We saw this deal and we were done.” Because I feel like it’s almost like wedding dress shopping. You’re so afraid-

Cathy Holman:

You wait too long.

Julie Gunlock:

Well, no, you’re so afraid to say yes to the dress because you’re like, “I’m going to see one I like better.” That’s why you just don’t look at another magazine after that or you don’t go … Yes, there might be a cheaper deal, but you just have to pull the trigger. That’s what I’ve done several times. I’ve just said, “Okay, this is the cheapest it’s going to be.” Frankly, I’ve never found one cheaper. I’ve had really good luck with that.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

I think if you follow the rates long enough, you’ll understand when something is remarkably low.

Cathy Holman:

My last thing that I’ll say, God bless my husband. He is the reason why we are where we are, and I could stay home for 11 years. He is a super tight booty. When I was like, “I want to take everyone. This is our last summer with all five kids before they start going to college.” He at first was like, “The cost. The cost.”

Julie Gunlock:

Yes. That’s my husband. Yeah.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, he ended up doing a video with me about it. What he said is, “You need to decide where you’re going to put your money.” A lot of people have payments on four wheelers, on jet skis, on their boat. A couple months of that payment would pay for your whole entire family to have two weeks in Europe. You have to choose. So if this is something you want to do, choose, and just actively keep on making that choice.

Julie Gunlock:

Cathy, we just bought my son some new bedroom furniture. He had this set that was kind of falling apart, so we bought this new set. We were putting it together, putting it in place. Of course, I go in his room and I’m super cleaning it. I found this pile of things in the corner. There’s always piles, right?

Cathy Holman:

Of course, right?

Julie Gunlock:

I find this pile. It’s old Christmas gifts that I had bought him. I couldn’t believe it. I was like, “Wait a minute, are you not using this stuff?” I was like, “I bought that for you. Why didn’t you …” Some of it was never taken out of the package. It was kind of silly stuff, like some games and some other stuff.

Cathy Holman:

But still, it adds up.

Julie Gunlock:

And funny socks and some T-shirts, and things like that. I mean, some of them don’t fit him anymore because he just put it in this pile. I kind of felt bad, like, “Maybe I should check out your room more often.” But the point is, is that I realized he would much rather have an experience than another pair of pizza socks or some sort of T-shirt with a little thing on it from his favorite team, or whatever. I think for him, we might start socking money away so we can go on these trips, or maybe he can enjoy something that’s a little bit more of an adventure rather than … Kids want time with their families and these are-

Cathy Holman:

Even if they don’t know it. Even if they fight it. Our teenagers loved it. This was our Christmas present to our kids. We told all of them, we’re like, “You’re not getting gifts from us,” and they were fine. Again, it’s that whole age thing, right?

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah.

Cathy Holman:

Santa still brought them things, but that was it.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah, I love it.

Cathy Holman:

They can understand it.

Julie Gunlock:

Yeah. Yeah, I think, really, quality over quantity, it’s kind of the rule after a couple of years. This is a great way to do that. As always, Cathy, I love talking to you. This was really helpful. I learned a lot. I think after we talk, I’ll get the links from you so we can add it.

Cathy Holman:

Yeah, I have all of them for you. The itinerary, it has links to the exact tours that we took that went really well. The exact Airbnbs, pro tips, all the things. Yeah.

Julie Gunlock:

We will definitely add this to the bottom of this podcast. As usual, it was great to talk to you. We’ll see you next month.

Cathy Holman:

Thanks for having me.

Julie Gunlock:

Bye. That was fun. I now want to go to Italy. The Bespoke Parenting podcast with Julie Gunlock is a production of the Independent Women’s Forum. You can send comments and questions to [email protected]. Please help me out by hitting the subscribe button and leaving a comment or review on Apple Podcasts, Acast, Google Play, or YouTube. You can also comment at iwf.org. Hang in there parents, and go Bespoke.