In honor of Labor Day, this week’s episode is all about unions. As unions take an increasingly prominent role in political and cultural debates, especially since COVID-19, we explore how much money unions make, why union dues keep increasing though union membership has dropped, and how exactly unions spend member dues. Specifically, we ask what percentage of worker dues and fees go to activities that benefit them versus union salaries and political activities.
Elisabeth Messenger is the CEO of Americans for Fair Treatment, a community of current and former public-sector employees offering resources and support to exercise their First Amendment rights. Elisabeth started her career in the publicity department at Atlantic Records in Los Angeles, CA. In 2016, Elisabeth transitioned into working with liberty-focused non-profits, with a particular focus on public-sector labor reform.
TRANSCRIPT
Beverly Hallberg:
And welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg. And today’s episode is all about unions, just in time for Labor Day. And we thought it was a good time to put a spotlight on unions as they take an increasingly prominent role in political and cultural debates, especially since COVID-19. So, we’re going to explore how much money unions make, why union dues keep increasing even though union membership has dropped, how exactly unions spend their member dues and fees. And we’re going to specifically ask what percentage of worker dues and fees go to activities that benefit them versus going to union salaries and political activities.
And the person joining us to break it all down is Elisabeth Messenger. Elizabeth Messenger is the CEO of Americans for Fair Treatment, a community of current and former public sector employees offering resources and support to exercise their first amendment rights. Elisabeth started her career in the publicity department to add Atlantic Records in Los Angeles, California, but in 2016, Elizabeth transitioned into working with liberty-focused non-profits with a particular focus on public sector labor reform. Elisabeth, a pleasure to have you on She Thinks for the first time.
Elisabeth Messenger:
Thank you so much. That was quite the intro. I appreciate that.
Beverly Hallberg:
And one of the things I love about your organization, Americans for Fair Treatment, is that you are made up of people who either have worked in unions or currently working in unions. How did this organization come about? And I’m curious if you could share maybe some of the stories you hear from people when they reach out to you.
Elisabeth Messenger:
Yeah. Well, I don’t know if this will come as a shock to you, but the government is not exactly known for being a great employer. And so, it’s in the wake of a 2018 Supreme Court decision that basically said that public employees don’t have to pay a dime to a union as a condition of employment. What we found was a bunch of people left their union and they had no place to go. And so, we created a free membership program for public employees. Not all of them have left their union, as you said, but many of our members have. But basically, we empower them with education and with tools so that they can speak up about their experience in a unionized workplace. And when I think about stories, I specifically think of a teacher in Pennsylvania who went through our legislative training program.
I think you’ve worked with her on media training. She’s a really incredible teacher. And she decided, I want to talk to the Pennsylvania lawmakers on the Labor and Industry Committee about several bills that she saw would help her, help worker freedom, help protect public employees from the overreach of unions.
So, we did all this prep with her. She wrote this beautiful testimony. She sits down in front of the labor committee, and every Democrat on the committee got up and walked out on her. And yet, she persisted as some senators say in DC. She gave her testimony. And I thought after, Oh, she’s going to be so rattled. And she wasn’t. She was so emboldened. She wrote op-eds, she wrote letters. And so, every day, I’m just in awe of these, specifically, public teachers who go through a lot in the classroom, go through a lot in that unionized environment, and yet, they still want to stand up for their colleagues and for other Americans. So, it’s a very rewarding job, I would say, for me and for my colleagues.
Beverly Hallberg:
And when you talk to, let’s say, a teacher or somebody else who’s part of a union, what would you say is the common theme that you hear from them? Why are they reaching out to you? What are they most concerned about?
Elisabeth Messenger:
Well, it’s funny. The number one reason for, I would say, the first couple of years after that Janus decision, so 2018 to 2020, the number one thing we heard was, I don’t like where the union… Where they spend my money, my dues. So, I want to leave. So, it’s interesting, the number one reason really was how the unions would take union members’ money, so their dues money, to the tune of a thousand to even $1,500 a year depending on what state you’re working in. And the union would spend that money on progressive politics, very partisan progressive politics.
So, that was the initial catalyst for a lot of people coming in the door. Today… Especially, you mentioned COVID. In the wake of COVID, many people are upset with the fact that the union is not representing them at the bargaining table, they’re not representing them in the media. And what they experience in the workplace, a lot of times at the hands of the union, is bullying, intimidation. A lot of these unions really are hyper-partisan political organizations. And so, the public employees who come to us are weary, fatigued, and they’re looking for support.
Beverly Hallberg:
When you use the word “bully”, can you give me an example of how a union worker, a teacher, let’s say, is bullied by the union?
Elisabeth Messenger:
Well, unfortunately, we’ve had instances of physical abuse. We had a teacher in New York who was physically assaulted. They stood up for themselves, and they left the union. And that’s a very rare example, but it does happen. Usually, it’s things like their name will be added to a list on a bulletin board. They might be called a name, a scab, or a rat. A lot of times, they’re told misinformation. Specifically, they might be told, “Your benefits come from your union.” And they’ll find out, no, they come from the employer. And when they push, they’ll start getting harassing texts. They’ll get harassing letters. So, a lot of times, I think, for us, what we see is it’s just that gradual harassment that builds up, and it gets to the point where it’s a hostile work environment.
Beverly Hallberg:
And I know that you inform workers of their rights. What would you say is one of the common misperceptions of the rights that the worker may have against their union?
Elisabeth Messenger:
The first is that you don’t have to pay them any money to be in the workplace to have your job. The second… This is for a public employee, that is. The second right I would say, is that your pension, your seniority, your job security, that all comes from your employer as a public employee. And so many public employees are told by the union, “If you leave the union, you will lose your job, you will lose your pension.” And that’s simply not true. But it’s amazing how bold the union is to keep people in the union. They’ll say all kinds of outlandish things. So, that’s the, I would say, the most common thing that we hear from public employees.
Beverly Hallberg:
So, let’s get into why maybe there are some misperceptions or flat-out lies that unions like to tell union members. And I think we could just start with the financial position of some of these labor unions. These are institutions that are making a lot of money, correct?
Elisabeth Messenger:
Oh, yeah. So, one thing I just started researching: I’m going to get a little wonky here, a lot of unions will act… So, we’ll speak about teachers unions. So, there’s a teacher’s union in Philadelphia that acts almost as an insurance broker. So, for example, for the health insurance, maybe the employer handles, but the dental and vision might be a plan that the union acts as a middle person. So, the city of Philadelphia will give the union a huge sum of money to operate these programs, and the unions will sit on that cash and use the interest from that to make investments in things like real estate. Well, what we’re finding in places like Philadelphia and New York City, these funds are just ripe for corruption. So, there’s so many corruption issues that’s been shocking to me. And that’s just… That’s the benefit fund; that’s a very niche area.
But overall, what we see more than anything, again, like I said at the top of our conversation, a lot of this is union dues money. So, this is not a PAC contribution or an additional contribution made by the employee. This is dues money that the employee is paying to the union as a part of representation. That money is being spent on political candidates. It’s being sent maybe from a state like New York down to a state like Virginia to help democrats in Virginia. And what we see is widespread corruption on that front when it comes to political activity. And I think that’s the thing that really has opened the eyes of so many public employees who are in a unionized environment, but also public employees in places like Virginia who maybe are not yet unionized.
Beverly Hallberg:
And so, when somebody pays their dues, their fees are often associated as well. What is the typical perception that one may have as to where they go? Because I would assume that most people would think, Oh, this is supposed to help me with collective bargaining or help me for my rights. Do most union workers think that the majority of that money is used directly to benefit them, or are they told how much goes to political activities?
Elisabeth Messenger:
100%, they think that it goes to protect them. I think most people in a unionized workplace imagine the union almost as like your State Farm or your GEICO broker: I pay this money, it goes into a fund, and then whenever I need help, they’re there to help me. And the reality is, I would say, up to 80%, depending on, again, where you are, up to 80% of the money at the local level runs up the chain to the state level and then to the federal before it comes washed back down to the local. So, for most people, it’s only a small amount of money that stays in that local union to actually help them with a legal proceeding or for bargaining.
Beverly Hallberg:
And that, I think, is just shocking to so many people. I think there’s a lot of nostalgia about unions of the past. Would you say that the way we viewed unions decades prior, let’s say, where our grandparents were a part of that, is it different than today?
Elisabeth Messenger:
1000%. Apparently, I’m into percentages. I think a lot of people look at the union and think of that Sally Fields movie, Norma Ray; they think of someone on a factory line, they think of someone who is in a really horrible work environment, and they have a horrible employer. The reality is most unionized workers in America are white-collar office workers. So, people very much think of the union as their grandfather’s union. And that couldn’t be further from the truth. In a way, I would say that unions are almost an anachronism. They did a lot of work for the federal government at the federal level, getting the eight-hour workday put in place, which we will see on social media on Labor Day. Thank a union for your weekends. But today, I think most of the union activity really is this partisan political activity. It’s not representing the individuals who are in the workplace.
Beverly Hallberg:
And do you think that maybe is why President Biden didn’t speak out too much against schools being shut down for so long? He seemed very quiet about that. Is that because of the connection to the money?
Elisabeth Messenger:
I think you’re right. I also think so much was happening so fast where the unions were actually advising these agencies. And so, I think for whether it was Biden or a federal agency, they were taking their direction from the unions. And so, I think that’s why we didn’t see them speak against the unions because they were working hand in glove.
Beverly Hallberg:
And I’m going to get some of these numbers wrong, but as I was reading through some of your materials, something that really stood out to me was the amount of money that the President of the American Federation of Teachers makes. So, this is Randi Weingarten, who made a ton of press over her stance on lockdown. She was on the wrong side of it, keeping children out of school. She makes over $400,000 where I think the average salary of a teacher is around the 45 to 55,000 dollar range, if I’m right on those numbers. That’s an astronomical salary.
Elisabeth Messenger:
Well, what’s interesting to me is a lot of times, the union leaders and the bosses will speak out against corporate bosses, but the union really is a corporation, and the people at the top of the union are making salaries in line with many corporate officials, especially I would say, a lot of times, they’ll speak out against an auto manufacturing company or something of that nature. And that’s the thing that’s been shocking as we dig into these salary numbers. The salaries for these union bosses are very large. And oftentimes, they’re drawing a salary from more than one entity.
So, you mentioned there was an LM-2, which is a legal document, a tax document filed by the union with the DOL. That’s what we see. There are so many other streams of revenue for these union bosses that we don’t see. They work for PACs, they work for nonprofits, they have speaking engagements. We don’t see that. So, it’s very true. And it’s all too often the case that these union bosses make even more than what a corporate CEO would make, which is so ironic because I think that that’s the message that unions want people to take away, that a corporate boss is greedy and not to be trusted, and that they are to be trusted. But in reality, when it comes to salaries, they’re very, very similar to these big corporate bosses that they, so often, will derail.
Beverly Hallberg:
And something that you reported on as well, looking at the data and you scan through the data on all of this, is that membership has declined. Now, I assume that a lot of that has to do with the Supreme Court decision in 2018, which you mentioned where nobody is forced to be part of a union. But tell us, how big of a drop has it been? Is it more than the Supreme Court decision? What is really the result of that, or the reason for it?
Elisabeth Messenger:
Yeah, I think a lot of it is the Supreme Court decision from 2018. At that time, people who were what they call agency fee payers were immediately released from paying any fees or membership duties. But since then, lots of groups around the country have been sounding the alarm, rolling out just massive educational platforms to tell public employees that they can leave the union. I think the numbers vary. The research varies based on what we have. I would say membership has dropped anywhere from 20 to 30% since 2018, and that’s a significant blow to their bottom line.
Beverly Hallberg:
But yet, their bottom line is still going up. So, how are they making up this money if the membership has gone down?
Elisabeth Messenger:
That’s a great point. One, they charge way more in membership. So, we’ve seen dues go up specifically in the northeast and on the West Coast, go up substantially. The other thing is they’re unionizing new types of workers or unionizing people who weren’t unionized. So, for example, more staff in the school, bus drivers. We’re seeing a lot of hospital staff now being unionized. So, I think the union is able to make up some of that lost revenue by, again, increasing the dues and then unionizing new groups of people.
Beverly Hallberg:
And something that I always think is interesting when we talk about unions and how they use dues for political activity is that federal law does allow this. Are there limits, though? Are there limits to who they can contribute to, or what causes , or the amount? What is the legality on it?
Elisabeth Messenger:
Yeah, there are limits. They are subject to, excuse me, all the same limits that apply to any other political contribution. I think the difference with a government union is it’s not just the money. So yes, they have PACs, they have lots of ways to funnel that money from the member to the politician, but they have an incredible ground game. So, there’s a thing called release time for a state worker or official time for a federal worker. And basically, what that means is that the employee, instead of reporting to an office or a classroom all day, they might work for a union, but their employer still pays their salary. So, for example, if you’re a teacher, let’s say you’re in the classroom next to me, and you work for the union, you still get paid by our school district, but instead of being in the classroom next to me, now, maybe you start working for the union.
So, you’re out, you’re organizing new people, you might be meeting with politicians on behalf of the union. So, that’s the thing that the union has, that political advantage that’s so hard to track. And honestly, it really is such a valuable tool for them in getting votes out. So, I mentioned before, money might leave a state like Pennsylvania and go to Virginia. We see all too often that workers will be organized in a city like Philadelphia. They’ll get on a bus, and be driven down to a place like Virginia Beach to participate in whether it’s a rally or door knocking for Democratic candidates. So, it’s a really pernicious system. It’s hard to track, but it’s very, very common and widespread.
Beverly Hallberg:
What if somebody is listening to you and says, I’m part of a union, or somebody in my family is part of the union, and we want to get out, but we’re fearful about what that’s going to mean for our benefits, let’s say, or our salary. So, even put the bullying aside and the intimidation tactics, they just don’t know, in a functional way, whether or not they’ll get the same amount of money. Have you seen that salaries don’t increase when people leave unions? Is there that type of retribution for leaving?
Elisabeth Messenger:
No, we haven’t seen any… When it comes to salaries or benefits, we’ve never seen a case where someone’s salary went down or their seniority went down. Now, that’s not to say that workplace bullying is not going to happen. That’s, unfortunately, human nature. For that person though who’s contemplating leaving and what would the other side look like, what would the consequence of me leaving the union be, the first thing I would say is to read your contract, read your collective bargaining agreement. Everything that’s in that agreement pertains to you. And so, that means that everything that’s guaranteed and that agreement is guaranteed for you regardless of union membership status. The second thing is, do your homework. There are groups like my organization, Americans for Fair Treatment, and so many others who will run through all of the scenarios with you, will go through your contract, will go through your bylaws if we can. We’ll go through all of those things to make sure that you’re equipped with the facts to make the right decision for you.
But I think for so many people, again, it’s that misinformation in the workplace. Even the HR person might be armed with the wrong facts that are provided by the union. And so, I often tell people to do your own homework, get outside advice, and then go in and make an informed decision. And often, you can be a help to your colleagues because if you’re thinking about it, I guarantee your colleagues… Some of the colleagues in your workplace are also thinking about it.
Beverly Hallberg:
And so, just a final question for you as we think about this all is, is a union valuable? Is there any value? So, I’m sure some people may accuse your organization of just trying to get rid of unions altogether. We’ve talked before, I know that’s not the case. What would you say about the value of unions, if any?
Elisabeth Messenger:
I think there are union alternatives that showcase that there is value in a union. I think the concept of a union is a remarkable concept. I think unions have done great things in the past for America, for workers in America, for our labor laws. I think today, the best unions are the local only, the ones who are only focused on one workplace, one small group of workers. They work tirelessly for those individuals. Those unions, we find… There’s one in California that is only in that one school district, and it’s a healthy, thriving union. It’s not very common, but we do see this. And it’s a really remarkable thing to see these groups of people represented well, they’re taken care of. And that money stays in the community.
Beverly Hallberg:
And if people want to get in touch with you and they want some help understanding their contracts, what they can do. Give us your website.
Elisabeth Messenger:
AmericansForFairTreatment.org, or afft.org.
Beverly Hallberg:
All right. Well, we so appreciate you breaking it down for us just in time for Labor Day. Elisabeth Messenger with Americans for Fair Treatment. We appreciate having you on She Thinks.
Elisabeth Messenger:
Thank you so much.
Beverly Hallberg:
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