Franklin Lee joins She Thinks podcast this week as we consider the new ways young Americans are approaching their future—from living in tiny homes to giving up lucrative careers for a nomad life. We dissect what “van life” really is and what it means for the housing market as well as how this plays into the need for a college degree. Finally, we discuss the impacts on families both in marriage and on kids. 

Franklin Lee is the Senior Associate for the Criminal Justice and Civil Liberties team at R Street Institute. Lee is also the DC Hub Coordinator for America’s Future. Previously, he worked as a paralegal for Lutheran Social Services of New York (LSSNY). Lee has published two books, From Harvard to Homeless: Journeys of a Millennial Nomad and an Amazon bestseller, The Art of Napping: The Sleeping Samurai and the Dormant Dragon.


TRANSCRIPT

Beverly Hallberg:

Welcome to She Thinks, a podcast where you’re allowed to think for yourself. I’m your host, Beverly Hallberg. In today’s episode, we’re going to look at the new ways young Americans are approaching life, everything from living in tiny homes to giving up lucrative careers for the life of a nomad. So we’re going to dissect what van life really is and what it means for the housing market, as well as how this plays into the need for a college degree. Finally, we’re going to look at the impacts to families both in marriage and kids, and we have a wonderful guest to break it all down. Franklin Lee joins us. Franklin is a senior associate for Criminal Justice and Civil Liberties, the team there at R Street Institute. He has published two books, an Amazon bestseller, The Art of Napping, and his recent book, which we’re going to discuss called From Harvard to Homeless: Journeys of a Millennial Nomad. Franklin, thank you so much for joining us.

Franklin Lee:

Thank you for having me.

Beverly Hallberg:

I want to start with your new book called From Harvard to Homeless because this is a book about you. You did graduate from Harvard, and you decided for a time to live what is known as van life. Give us a little insight into why you made this transition and why you wrote the book about it.

Franklin Lee:

Yes, absolutely. Thank you for your question. So, I did graduate from Harvard in 2015. Right after my bachelor’s degree, I went to Georgetown for graduate school for two years, and then I moved to New York City to start my full-time job. The reason why I decided to pursue van life, there were many different factors, but the main reason, which might not be surprising, is the high rent prices in New York City. I was seeking for a creative way not to pay rent, and one of the options that was ahead of me at that time was to live inside a van.

Beverly Hallberg:

So, how long did you do this and how much did you save on rent by buying a van and living out of it, and where did you park the van? Where does one do that?

Franklin Lee:

Yeah. Those are all great questions. Well, let’s first start off with how long I pursued van life. I pursued van life for a year, so through all four seasons, I did not spend the entire time in New York City. I spent about half in New York and then I spent around the other half in D.C. Considering the fact that I paid about $1,000 a little more in rent in New York City every month, I probably saved around $12,000 that year. I’m not sure if I can disclose where it is within the podcast, but I will say that I had a really, really great location in New York City. I do tell my friends personally where it is, and it was great because it was only a five to 10-minute walk to work while I was living there.

Beverly Hallberg:

So this is not just something that you’ve done, but this is a trend, which is why you’ve written about it in your book, and it’s not just van life; there’s also tiny home community. So even the area I live in, which is in Greenville, South Carolina, there is a location of tiny homes. Even you can go online, and you can purchase cabins and small places to build wherever you would like. This seems to be a trend. In your research about it, why has this become a trend?

Franklin Lee:

Yeah, I think in the recent years it’s become more and more so, you’ll see that it’s becoming more and more prominent. This was especially exacerbated during our time during the pandemic, and I think it’s to no surprise that I think a big part of that is because people are looking to find affordable housing. People are looking for creative ways to fight against inflation, to find ways to seek out more efficient ways to live, considering that inflation has been rising at a much faster pace than our wages.

Beverly Hallberg:

I was looking into some of the data on tiny homes. So, the average size of a tiny home is anywhere from 100 to 400 square feet. Now the cost of them, I think, are roughly around, they can range everywhere from $8,000 up to $60,000. But the thing that I thought was interesting is per square foot, it does cost more to buy a tiny home per square foot than it does a normal house. So it’s $300 per square foot for a tiny home compared to $150 per square foot for a traditional home. But of course, people are saving a lot on that. There’s not much square footage. Is this just something that single people want to do, whether it’s a tiny home or a van life, or do you even see families going to this?

Franklin Lee:

Oh, there’s so much to cover in that question. First, I want to start off with the fact that I can’t speak for everyone, but from my perspective, I did not see van life as my ideal. I know that on Instagram, you see these wonderful photos, these picturesque photos of what van life is, and I did not start with that in mind. So I think that for cost efficiency, we actually would prefer to live inside an apartment or larger living quarters. But the reality is that when you look at your budget and how you distribute budget, your monthly salary into how much you spend on your living quarters, it’s just very difficult to make ends meet with the monthly rent right now. I think the data shows that people who live in larger families can actually make their living spaces, it can be more efficient to live together with somebody. But because people are more fragmented and a lot of people are living the single life and they want to work within their budgets, they are looking into these creative alternative housing options.

Beverly Hallberg:

It does seem something that’s just, I didn’t know if it was just a trend, if it was something that was catching on, because I find during the era of the pandemic, you really saw two different ways people went. One was to go this more minimalist type of lifestyle, and then other people who were looking for bigger homes just because they had to work out of their home. So it’s really, I think, upended the housing market in so many ways and also so many people moving. Has there been such a desire for the van life or for tiny homes, even if that desire is just purely from an economic matter or from that perspective that it really has disrupted the housing market quite a bit?

Franklin Lee:

Oh, that’s a great question. I think it’s hard to say. The van life has obviously been exploding, but I don’t know if it’s quite… I’m not a housing expert, so it’s hard to say exactly if that’s disrupted the markets thus far. But I definitely think that there is the potential to. As you mentioned, it’s been interesting with the pandemic how it had this very interesting effect in which people who, some people went into larger homes and some people pursued van life. At the end of the day, I think people are looking for creative ways to resolve the challenges that modern young professionals are facing.

Beverly Hallberg:

What would you say in your experience were the positives of living out of a van and some of the negatives? So if somebody is considering this and they say, “Look, it is too costly in the city I live in, maybe a van is the way to go.” What did you learn along the way?

Franklin Lee:

Oh, yeah. So I would say that the pro of van life is the ability to live wherever you want, as long as you can find a parking space where nobody will bother you. Oftentimes, Walmart parking lots are a great place to start. Just the ability to just walk out the door into nature or just have a breath of fresh air right as you wake up is just incredible. I would say there are surprisingly a lot of cons, but not to dissuade any prospective van livers, but there are lots of things that you should consider before starting.

One is the fact that because you are living in a smaller space, you do have to think about the logistics of where to put the bed, where you want to spend your time throughout the day, depending on if you’re during the summertime or considering the different temperatures throughout the year. There are lots of logistics to consider before starting, but the freedom that you gain, I think, could be worth it for a lot of young professionals who oftentimes have to consider the fact that in order to progress their careers, they might have to move from city to city.

Beverly Hallberg:

There’s also this other side, which is, people may want to choose this just so that they can be on the road, see the country. Since so many people do have careers that allow you to work remotely, so has remote work opened up this opportunity even more?

Franklin Lee:

Yes, I believe that remote work has definitely increased the ability to pursue van life. I will say that one challenge that I faced while pursuing van life is that access to Wi-Fi is very, very important for remote work. So, I have been very interested in Starlink and other forms of space-based internet access over time.

Beverly Hallberg:

I do notice too, this seems to be coinciding this popularity, at the same time, the cost for college just continues to increase. Of course, there’s been a lot of debate. We’ve talked about this topic here on the podcast, just about student loan debt and whether or not the government should be involved in in paying that off. How does this correlate with people maybe rejecting this idea of needing a degree, that maybe a degree isn’t needed if your housing expenses, your living expenses aren’t as high as what they used to be if you decide to downsize in this way?

Franklin Lee:

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of pressure. I’ve had this question from my friends and having graduated from Harvard. Unfortunately, I think my general answer is that if you look at the research from the PEW Research Center, a college degree does in fact help your ability to get a job and have a higher annual salary, although it does depend on the major you choose. That said, it is definitely true. You do definitely see that the tuition prices have been inflating at a much faster pace than we just have, and sometimes, students are not prepared to make the decision to get such a large sum of student loans and invest that much to possibly get a job.

Also, considering the fact that a college degree more and more so does not guarantee a job, the competition is becoming fiercer and fiercer every year. So I think it’s hard for me to say that a college degree is not worth it, but I think it’s becoming less and less worth it for more people. So we are seeing more people who are considering alternatives. For me, I think my college degree and my graduate degree was definitely worth the money, but I can’t discount the fact that at the end of it, I was under $100,000 in student loans, and I am currently in the process of paying that off. In that process, I have had to be very creative about how to budget my housing, among other things.

Beverly Hallberg:

I wonder for you, or maybe this is a trend that you’ve seen as well. If this is overall for millennials, you’re a millennial; think about the younger generation, is this a move to less focus on material goods? Is there a minimalist perspective that is definitely something that’s gaining traction, something that people are drawn to? Is that part of this is that people want less things?

Franklin Lee:

Yes, definitely. Especially in the beginning, I would say, especially when I first started van life, I pursues van life between 2019, 2020, 2021. Definitely, a big appeal to a lot of my peers and acquaintances was that they were interested in this lifestyle where I would have less things, and I would build up more experiences. But I would say that the trend that I’m seeing now is not about really being minimal or having less things per se, but more about being more intentional about how you are spending your money and how you are spending your time. I think oftentimes, a lot of our society thinks minimalism in terms of an aesthetic, but I think more and more people are looking at it more practically for a lot of young folks.

Beverly Hallberg:

Of course, a natural thing that people ask is, “Well, what happens when you think about marriage and kids?” Is this just something that single people do when they’re young, and then they get the white picket fence and the larger house once they get married?

Franklin Lee:

Oh, I don’t have the exact data with me, but I don’t think so, actually. I think more and more families are considering alternative housing options, especially considering that dual incomes or even people with dual earners in their households are struggling to pay rent in a lot of cases. So surprisingly, a lot of people who are couples who have kids have actually asked about if there might be a way to consider alternative housing and at least know it as… possibly see it as an option for their future.

Beverly Hallberg:

I want to talk a little bit about your book more. Who was this book for, and if somebody is interested in learning more about it, is this the type of book that would give them the tools to do it?

Franklin Lee:

Yeah. This book is mainly for people who want to engage in a conversation about finding ways to create more alternative housing options in our nation. As mentioned, I work for R Street Institute, and our policy work is based on the principle of free markets, real solutions. The book really does try to cover about different ways we can deregulate and make it easier to create other housing options for the wider public. In doing so, more and more people will be able to navigate through the challenges that a lot of young professionals are facing today.

Beverly Hallberg:

So, I want to get into the regulation just a little bit. Where is the regulation on this type of living arrangement? Are there regulations that do prevent people in certain cities, certain counties, certain states?

Franklin Lee:

Absolutely. One reason why I perceive van life on the East Coast is that it is much more common and popular in the West Coast, where I’m from in Southern California, because the temperature permits it, it makes it a lot easier to live inside your car there. That has both been a blessing and a curse. A lot of local regulations have noticed that there were a lot of people living inside their cars, and therefore, they have tried to regulate them by changing street parking hours, try to monitor people who are living inside their cars in a way where it discourages them. So I’ve been very interested in, there is a nonprofit in Southern California called Safe Parking, LA, San Diego, et cetera. There are safe parking lots in Southern California, where it’s a nonprofit where they provide security settings for people who live inside their cars within designated parking areas. I think that there’s a lot of potential in expanding that throughout the country and letting the free market take its rein there.

Beverly Hallberg:

Just a final question for you: you mentioned the free market. Obviously, people in this country have the choice to decide how they want to spend their money on their housing arrangements. Do you think that this is a trend that just ends, or are you seeing this really gaining traction over time?

Franklin Lee:

Yeah, I think this definitely goes beyond just a trend. I think the housing market is, we are continuously struggling. A lot of people are struggling to make ends meet. I think the problem here oftentimes, is that each generation or preceding generation, the challenges are different. It’s very difficult to lower our standards of living just because our previous generation has done so, but we also cannot live just the way that we had been doing so before. I think that, hopefully, in promoting free market principles in the concept of alternative housing, younger professionals will be able to figure out innovative ways to live to make a better future for everyone.

Beverly Hallberg:

Well, for those who are interested in learning more about your story and also to get some information, if they have an interest themselves in pursuing this type of living arrangement, they can go and buy your book. It’s called From Harvard to Homeless: Journeys of a Millennial Nomad. Franklin Lee with R Street Institute. Thank you so much for joining us.

Franklin Lee:

Thank you so much.

Beverly Hallberg:

And thank you all for joining us. Before you go, IWF does want you to know that we rely on the generosity of supporters like you, and investment in IWF fuels our efforts to enhance freedom, opportunity, and wellbeing for all Americans. So please consider making a small donation to IWF by visiting iwf.org/donate. That’s iwf.org/donate. Last, if you enjoyed this episode, She Thinks, do leave us a rating or review, it does help. We’d love it if you shared this episode so your friends can know where they can find more She Thinks. From all of us here at IWF, thanks for watching.